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0:00Okay, good morning. Uh, welcome back. Any questions or comments from uh yesterday? Uh, yes.
Uh, yeah, I I did a I I got went down a rabbit hole about Ulisses. Um, and it's it's rife in in the academic sources about like nobody really agrees on what Ulyses is doing in there and why all academics seem to be contingent on this. Um, he's in the he's in the realm of false counselors and he obviously he went on the the boat trip um and convinced his men we need to go to the end of the world and he gave false counselor to them. But it's just a boatload of men. There's no reason why giving false counselor to to 50 people would end him in this level of hell.
And when the few places that they seem to be in agreement on is that through Homer and then Ver Virgil Zenid and then Dante's Inferno, he ends up to to Dante himself, he's essentially giving counsel to the ages on go beyond your means. Have this what is it? this um this god-like pride to go beyond God's limits like what Adam ends up doing. Um and some academics have him as like um he's suffering for Dante sin because Dante has this arrogance that you keep speaking about. And so they they find certain points in the in the Kanto to to really point that out.
But I thought it was important because I had a college professor who spoke about Lord Alfred Tennyson's poem on Ulisses, right?
And it finishes with uh Ulysus is an old man. And he's sitting with his his son Telmachus and he's like uh oh I'm so sad. And the final line is I'm made weak by time and fate but strong in will to strive to seek to find and not to yield.
2:01And Tennyson is essentially doing what Homer has done, which is like maybe there's some there's some nobility in in both, but you're sitting next to your son who you've abandoned your whole life, man. Like like appreciate your son and quit quit going on out.
And um he this college professor brought it up because that final quote would be on uh pictures on students walls with like the moon landing and stuff and they would and students were like, "Yeah, get it. like always go out, go beyond your means, be Victor Frankenstein. Um, and he's like, humanity's taking the wrong message that everybody has been trying to tell us now. And so it's it's effective. Dante puts him there because he essentially is a false counselor to all of humanity up until today.
Right. Okay. All right. So that's really interesting. Um, so let me make some comments.
First of all, Ulysis is there where he has been punished not because uh he's he sailed away from his family. It's because of the Trojan horse, right? So he counled the Greeks uh to devise the Trojan horse and that's what he's punished for and that's pretty explicit in the divine comedy. Uh that's point one. Okay.
not not for misleading his men to their deaths but for uh advising the Greeks to use a Trojan horse uh which destroyed Troy which is um which and they they are the uh ancestors to the Romans. That's point one. Point two is like what we need to remember is that at this time in history Donn does not have access to Homer. Uh he knows Ulisses through the Iniad. Uh because in the Yinyat it says explicitly that Ulisses advised the Greeks on the Trojan horse, him and Damedes, and that's why they're suffering together.
Um point three is that if you actually read Homer's Odyssey, it's a very different take on uh Odysius. Um I've taught the Odyssey and the the Odyssey is ultimately not
4:02about a journey outward, but a journey home to his family. and he comes home and he realizes that what really matters is family and it's a family reunion. So it goes counter it's really interesting but it goes counter to the popular western narrative that Ulissi is he is a romantic wanderer or explorer. Um so um what I should have done is actually taught Homer then taught Virgil then taught Dante because there it's a straight legacy. Okay.
Uh Virgil's responding to Homer and then Dant is responding to Virgil. And what's really interesting is that Dante never read Homer. Uh because at this time uh you can't access the Greek, but Homer and Dante agree on everything. So it's almost like Dant is the second coming of Homer. So it's really interesting that that that way.
Okay.
Uh yes. Maybe um Virgil intentionally tried to make home and the Odyssey look bad because they wanted to or he wanted to kill the Greek culture, right? So he wanted to replace it with the Roman culture and so he can like he talks bad about the Odyssey and
Exactly. And and this was something we'll go more into later on. But remember from last class we talked about how the counterfeitter was uh arguing with Son the the man who tricked the Trojans in the land letting in the Trojan horse. They were arguing who is worse and it was Virgil who created St. s on right so basically if you think about it if you just use your imagination um there's a counterfeit counterfeiting of coin and then there's a counterfeiting of poetry right so what he's really saying is okay m I'm saying to son hey maybe I counterfeited coin but you counterfeited someone's poetry you plagiarize someone's poetry is that much worse than counterfeiting
6:04uh coins because at this time in history remember counterfeitting coins is a really serious crime especially in Florence because they're very proud of um their currency which which considered pure gold right so um we we'll go back that section but but yeah just but but that's a good point okay any more points yes
uh so last night I was reading a journal entry by Manley P Hall
right yes
and it's just
the cultist
yeah and it's his commentary on on the divine comedy and what I thought was interesting relating to the question we discussed towards the end of class about why is hell frozen and there's it's not not moving is he separately not related to that question says and I quote motional desire or restlessness is the unsatisfied impulse of all creation to reach identity with the divine motion must continue until no interval remains between consciousness and the infinite and then a few sentences later says Man is the self moved by the power of will and desire. So if we if we think of then hell again, if there's no movement and it's all frozen, then surely that implies that it's because we're so deep in the inferno that there is so little uh will and desire and you're so far from connecting with the divine.
Yeah, exactly. They basically given up on themselves, right? So it's really interesting. Uh, and I'll point out that um, oultists do read Divine Comedy literally. Like they they really believe that um, Donnie had a near-death experience or he had visions of the after afterlife and they do take him literally.
And today we will go into demetic possession, which is something that they're really concerned about, right? Is it possible to possess by angels and demons? And Dante refers to this um, in inferno and we'll discuss this in depth, okay? But yeah, their cult is really important idea. A cultist
8:04love Dante. Um any Yes.
Um yeah. So yesterday I thought more about the Dante putting people who hijack our imagination lower than people who murder someone and
or commit genocide, right? Committed genocide and like Yes. Um, and so what I don't understand is that does murdering not like kill someone's entire capacity to imagine anything because you can't imagine if you're in hell or in in paradise, right? Like you can't because you you don't have a body and you don't have like worldly experiences. So like you can't imagine at all.
And like if you hijack the imagination. Okay. But but like you can still like get your imagination back if it's hijacked, right? But you can't get it back if you dead.
Yeah.
So does like a follow-up question would be if Dante believes in reincarnation maybe. So that's like a solution to that.
Okay. Yeah. So D does say there's reincarnation um in paradise when Beatatrice is talking to him and saying look your souls are immortal right that that's explicit in divine comedy your souls are mortal so Dar does believe in the um uh in in the immortality of the soul um but to answer your question what's really important to understand is that for Dante hell earth and heaven correspond on with each other and what's really important is to maintain the dynamic creativity of the universe. Basically maintains maintain our capacity to imagine. Okay?
Because that's a life force of the universe. And um when you reduce people from the world that that doesn't actually reduce
10:04the imag life force from the world because it's possible that a few people um have the imagination right so Dante is very imaginative and he's able to change society through his imagination. for one person. As long as this one person maintains his capacity for imagination, the entire universe still revolves. Okay? It still moves.
The problem with counterfeiting or hijacking the imagination is that you're reducing the universe's overall capacity to be imaginative. Okay? Does that make sense? So, so, so this is a counterintuitive idea, but what matters is not the sum total of life in the universe. What matters is a sum total of imagination in the universe.
And when you counterfeit the imagination and disrupt the um connection between humanity and the divine then that reduces the the overall imagination in the universe and therefore it reduces the total life force in the universe. Yes.
So if Dante would have been killed then there would have been another Dante at some point probably.
Um exactly. I I think I think that's what Dante would say. But at the same time, and he's explicit about this, right? He is on a divine mission, right? In hell, he doesn't have to fear the demons.
He doesn't have to fear uh anything because God has willed it, right? So when he wrote the divine comedy, he's like, I don't fear dying halfway and not completing divine comedy. I don't fear my marriage being burned. I don't fear being the script because God has willed it. You understand?
And it's this complete faith that allows him to access the vine and complete the divine comedy. This something that Manny Hall would say as well, right? Okay. Uh yes. What was it that allowed Faronata to imagine that his son was dead in that if the Satan
12:04frozen in the bottom of the hell cannot imagine anything? What mechanism was it that allowed Faronata to because I remember that he says that he cannot notice things that are close to them but can sense things that are long past or long to come. If in hell imagination is stripped away, how could what mechanism did Dante leverage to get Faronata to believe that Guido was dead?
Right. That's a really good point. Okay, so um this is a really hard question and I I'll try my best, but I think there's a difference between the imagination and the emotion. Okay, the emotion is is your connection with other people. You're longing for your son, your longing for your wife, the long you're longing for for God.
Okay, and the emotion can never be extinguished because it's tied to the soul. So um even though Feronata doesn't have the capacity to imagine he does have the capacity to long for his son right and that's why when Donnie said to him your son is burning in hell it's so anguishing for uh Feronato because no no it was not Fernato it's coverante okay it's cover kee um and he um lacks the imagination to think that Donnie could could be could be lying Okay, here in hell it's not possible for the souls to imagine that others could be deceiving them. Um, and so he falls into tremendous anguish. Okay, does that make sense? There's a difference between the the imagination and the emotion.
Love, right? Love is the unifying force of the universe. The imagination is the animating force of the universe. And um the imagination is unique to us. And the imagination is only is only available to those with a body.
Okay. All right. So, good question. And uh again, like scholars have been debating these questions for hundreds of years,
14:05literally. Okay. You're going to find like hundreds of different commentaries online about Dante. So, all all we're doing is we're speculating here. Okay.
Um anymore. This is great, by the way. Uh yes. So, it's got me thinking because everybody in hell doesn't want to be in hell. So, there's a there's a difference between imagination and desire.
They all desire for it to stop or is there like is there something going on there?
Well, if you remember when they are crossing the Aaron River to come going to hell, they desire it. I mean, Donnie is explicit here. Remember the word desire, right? Uh and Donnie is surprised by this. Like, why are people desiring to go to hell?
And the only reason why is they think they deserve it. They think they think it's a release from whatever sin they they've done. And it's something that we'll discuss later on where um if you if you think that dementic possession is possible, right? Then you also have to think that interdimensional uh travel is possible. You have to think that the soul can exist in different dimensions.
And when you do anything whe whether it's virtuous or whe whether it's sinful you your sin can uh tra t trespass into other dimensions. Okay. So like so like when you do something sinful your your soul is now locked in hell for in a certain place and and that that's what Dante is suggesting here where if you think about it okay the person commits uh a sin of lust and now he's in the plane of lust. Are you saying that's the only sin he committed? Are you saying he did nothing else with his life?
But but but what I think Donnie is suggesting is like the sin uh it corrupts a soul in a certain way so that the soul is trapped in a certain plane of hell. But to understand that you need to also believe in the infinite dimensions of the soul
16:08and the fact that the soul across exists across infinite dimensions and where whatever you do u the soul becomes more anchored in certain dimension if that makes any sense. Okay. And again if you read many Paul the occultist he does go into this. Okay. Okay.
Great. Yeah. Okay. Let's let let's continue please. Okay, we're at candle
line 25. The denube where it flows in Austria, the dawn beneath its frozen sky, have never made for their course to so thick a veil in winter as there was here. For had Mount Tabernick or Propana's mountain crashed upon it, not even that the edge would it have creaked. And as the croaking frog sits with its muzzle above the water, in the season when the peasant woman often dreams of gleaning, so livid in the ice, up to the place where shame can show itself were those sad shades whose teeth were chattering with note like stors. Each kept his face bent downward steadily.
Their mouth bore witness to the cold they felt just as their eyes proclaimed their sorrow hearts. When I had looked around a while, my eyes turned toward my feet and saw two locked so close the hair upon their heads had intermingled. "Do tell me, you whose chests are pressed so tight," I said, "Who are you?" They bent back their necks, and when they'd lifted up their faces toward me, their eyes which wept upon the ground before, shed tears down on their lips until the cold held fast the tears and locked their lids still more. No clamp has ever fastened plank to plank so tightly. And because of this they butted each other like two rams such was their fury.
And one from whom the cold had taken both as ears who kept his face bent low and said, "Why do you keep on
18:08staring so at us? If you would like to know who these two are at that valley where Benzio descends belong to them and to their father Alberto. They came out of one body and you can search all ca you'll never find a shade more fit to sit within this ice. Not him who at one blow had chest and shadow shattered by Arthur's hand. And not Fukacia and not the sinner here who so impeded my vision with his head.
I can't see past him. His name was Cassul Mascaroni. If you're Tusca now you know who he has been. Unless you keep me talking any longer, know that I was commission de poty. I'm waiting for Carino to absolve me.
And after that, I saw a thousand faces made doglike by the cold for which I shudder and always will when I face frozen fors. And while we were advancing toward the center to which all weight is drawn, I shivering in that eternal cold shadow. I know not if it was will or destiny or chance. But as I walked among the heads, I struck my foot hard in the face of one. Weeping, he chided them, "Why trample me if you've not come to act the revenge of Montiperi?
Why do you molest me?" And I, my master, now wait here for me, that I may clear up just one doubt about him. Then you can make me hurry as you will. My guide stood fast and I went on to ask of him who still was cursing bitter bitterly. Who are you that rebukes another? So, and who are you who go through antora striking the cheeks of others?
He replied, too roughly even if you were alive. I am alive and can be precious to you if you want fame was my reply. For I can set your name among my other notes. and he to me, I want the contrary, so go
20:09away and do not harass me. Your flattery is useless in this valley. At that I grabbed him by the scruff and said, "You'll have to name yourself to me, or else you won't have even one hair left up here." And he to me, "Though you should strip me bald, I should shall not tell you who I am or show it, not if you pound my head a thousand times." His hairs were wound around my hand already, and I had plucked from him more than one tuft while he was barking, and his eyes stared down when someone else cried out, "What is it, Baka? Isn't the music of your jaws enough for you without your bark? What devils at you?" And now I said, "You traitor bent on evil.
I do not need your talk, for I shall carry true news of you, and that will bring you shame." "Be off," he answered. Tell them who you like, but don't be silent if you make it back about the one whose tongue was now so quick. Here he laments the silver of the Frenchmen. I saw you then can say him of Derera down there where all the sinners are kept cool. And if you asked who else was there in ice, one of the bacteria and beside you, he had his skull sliced right through by Florence.
Johnny Del Soder, I believe, lies there with Ganelon and Tabaldello. He who unlocked Benza while it slept. We had already taken leave of him when I saw two shades frozen in one hole, so that one once had served as the other's cap. And just as he whose hungry choose his bread, one sinner dug his teeth into the other right at the place where brainest joined to nape. No differently had tidiest not the temples of Manalopus out of indignation than this one chewed the skull and other parts.
Oh you who show with such beastial sign your hatred for the one on whom you feed tell me the
22:09cause. I said we can agree that if you quarrel with him is justified then knowing who you are and what's this what's his sin I shall repay you yet on earth above if that with which I speak does not dry up.
Okay. All right. So we are in the final circle of hell and it's a completely frozen lake where everyone is submerged in a lake and just freezing. They can't move. They can only feel pain and um there are also divisions within this lake and they're name they're given different names and they are ranked according to the what they betrayed.
Okay. So at the outer layer there's the betrayal of family. So basically two brothers who killed each other. Okay. Betrayal of family.
Okay. Then as you go further down there is the betrayal of country. Okay. So the example is BA. And who is Baka?
FA is someone who um fought for the Florentines with Dante, but he was not loyal to the Florentines. And at a battle, a crucial battle between the Gves and the Gil Gilibbeines, he betrayed the Gves by cutting off the hand of the standard bearer. Okay, the standard bearer, if you know your uh medieval battles, the standard bearer is essentially like captain of the flag or the king in the game of chess, right? uh the Senate barrier is what gives uh direction, hope and focus to the army. So this caused the GS to lose a major battle.
Okay. And that's why um Baka is being punished and Donnie recognizes him and demands that he speak up. Baka is like no I rather be forgotten. Okay. So
24:10lower down is the betrayal of country. Then you have the betrayal of um friends and then you have the betrayal of guests. Okay. So again, the thing about divine comedy is it's full of paradoxes. And if you actually look at this, you would think that it would be the opposite, right?
Like betrayal of guests would be the least punished and the most punished would be betrayal of family because family is tied together by blood. So what's going on here? Why would Donnie construct his n circle of treachery in such a manner? Okay. What's the criteria that he's using to judge the sin?
Uh, yes.
I think it's about how it reflects to the universe. So, if you betray a family, it only concerns yours, whereas a guest can really concern anyone on earth. Yes.
And so, it disrupts trust.
Yes. Thank you. Yes.
I think in the Middle East as well, like in Iran or like in Israel, I guess, to treat a guest, you have to put up the best hospitality. It's because it's stranger. I think it's underlying the same principle.
Uh, Kong,
well, I think you have a great idea, but I'm not sure if it was if that was the case. I feel like friends would be a smaller circle than country. And so those two circles would be the opposite. And so maybe we could work that into the new theory.
You will, right? You choose because because you don't choose your family. You you might not even choose the country you're born on, but you choose your friends and you invite your guests.
Exactly. Yes.
I think I like the reflection idea and it's about what is contrary to the nature of the universe. And as humans with bodies, we are guests. So he's asking what would God really never do. Of course, he would never betray these other groups, but
26:10they are all subsumed within the group of guests under God. So it's really the major violence against God is against guests.
Okay. Great. Okay. Yeah. So I think Evelyn's right.
Okay. So to summarize, it's the idea that um we have a responsibility to protect love and the imagination in the universe. Okay. Without love, there can be no imagination. Love is based on trust.
So the more trust you create in the universe, the greater the capacity for love in the universe. Therefore, the greater capacity for imagination. Um again the idea of free will where we all have a choice whether or not to enter in a contract right the idea of a social contract we choose to enter a social contract and what's really important is to honor those social contract. The thing about family is you don't choose to enter in a social contract. You're just stuck with a family.
Okay? You don't choose your country. You're stuck with your country. But you do choose your friends and you do choose who to invite into your household. Okay?
And and um also what's really important is the idea of guests. Like the iron law of most society is to treat guests with hospitality. This is true for most of human history, not just the Middle East, okay? Anywhere in the world. Okay?
You don't really appreciate this but at this time if a stranger comes from far away you have an urgent responsibility to treat him with the most utmost respect. Okay nowadays you're like oh immigrants let's kill immigrants. No no no no immigration for of most of human history was really rare and was much common was just the traveler right and so if you saw a traveler you had to treat that person with with utmost respect and hospitality. And the reason why is well if you kill that person then no one could ever travel right? No one could ever nobody ever explore.
And um in in the Greek mythology in the Greek society
28:10what they believe that every guest could potentially be a god in disguise. So to kill a guest would be to upset the gods themselves. Okay. And so um did did sorry did you have a question or comment?
Um yeah. So what's then even worse probably is that if you're a guest you um disrespect the host because that's what Paris for example did when he was he was a guest in Greece and then he stole Helen or when the Greece were basically guests in Troy and then they destroyed Troy.
Yes, exactly. Yes. Um that's a really special case. This is something I never really thought about where the guest purposefully uh betrays the host. Uh but but that's a great question for us to think about and this is something that uh if Dante knew about he would definitely put uh Paris in here as well.
Yeah, that that's a really great comment. Um but does this make sense to you guys? Okay, unless you have trust, society cannot function at all. Right? I mean, think about how um you like like for example, the most bas basic thing is you often set disputes, right?
If there's a war going on, you would invite the opposing general for a dinner, right? And like if you just kill the general like there there could be no reconciliation, there could be no no mediation, right? So this idea of like honoring guests, it's an iron law throughout all human society. Okay, it's true in China. It's true everywhere.
Right? And the reason why is that if you didn't have this law, so society just could not function. Okay? There could be no basis for any contract. Okay?
All right. So that's what's going on here. All right. Let's keep on going.
30:10KTO 33. That sinner raised his mouth from his fierce meal. Then used the head that he had ripped apart in back. He wiped his lips upon its hair. Then he began, "You want me to renew desparing pain that presses at my heart even as I think back before I speak.
But if my words are seed from which the fruit fruit is infamy for this betrayer whom I gnaw, you'll see me speak and weep at once. I don't know who you are or in what may you've come down here. And yet you surely seem for what I hear to be Florentine. You're to know I was Count Ugalino. And this one here, Archbishop Rubiieri.
And now I'll tell you why I'm his neighbor. There's no need to tell you that because of his malicious tricks, I first was taken then was killed since I had trusted him. However, that which you cannot have heard, that is the cruel death for me, you now shall hear and know if he has wronged me. A narrow window in the eagle's tower, which now through me is called the hunger tower. A cage in which still others will be locked, had through its opening already showed me several moons.
When I dreamed that bad dream which rent the curtain of the future for me, this man appeared to me as lord and master. He hunted down the wolf and its young welps upon the mountain that prevents the peons from seeing Luca. And with lean and keen and practiced hounds he sent up front before him wandi and sismundi and the Frankie. But after a brief course it seemed to me that both the father and the sons were weary. I seemed to see their flanks torn by sharp fangs.
When I awoke at daybreak I could hear my sons who were together with me there weeping within their sleep asking for bread. You would be cruel indeed if thinking what my heart foresaw. You don't already grieve. And if you don't weep now, when would you weep? They were awake by now.
The hour drew near at
32:10which our food was usually brought. And each, because of what he dreamed, was anxious. Below I heard them nailing up the door of that appalling tower without a word. I looked into the faces of my sons. I did not weep.
Within I turned to stone, they wept. And my poor little handsome said, "Father, you look so what is wrong with you?" At that I shed no tears and all day long and through the night that followed did not answer until another sun had touched the world. As soon as a thin ray had made its way into that sorry prison and I saw reflected in four faces my own gaze. Out of my grief I bit at both my hands. And they who thought I'd done that out of hunger immediately rose and told me, "Father, it would be far less painful for us if you ate of us.
for you clothed us in this sad flesh. It is for you to strip it off. Then I grew calm to keep them from more sadness. Through that day, and the next we all were silent, "Oh hard earth, why did you not open up?" But after we had reached the fourth day, God, throwing himself outstretched down at my feet, implored me, "Father, why do you not help me?" And there he died. And just as you see me, I saw the other three fall one by one, between the fifth and the sixth, at which now blind, now blind, I started groping over each, and after they were dead, I called them for two days.
Then fasting had more force than grief.
Okay. All right. So the story is um at this time in history, Count Yugalino is one of the most famous Italians. He is a great military strategist. uh of Pisa and um eventually because he is so ambitious, he's a very Makavedan figure um he will change alliances always and
34:10then he falls into alliance with the archbishop who then betrays him in order to obtain more power for himself. What the archbishop does is that he locks him and his and his children, his sons, into a cell and force away the key. They don't know this, but no one's coming to them and giving them food. So they're just starving to death. And the um urban legend is that uh Count Ugandano cannibis children in order to keep himself alive.
Um first of all we discussed the idea of symmetry in the in the vine comedy. Okay. Do you guys know uh and this this is like the second last conto the penultimate kto right? What is a penalty conto in Paradise that mirrors this? Do you guys remember?
And and that's and that's what's uh brilliant about Dante. He's always doing symmetry in order to excite your imagination. So here this is a father cannibalizing his children. You guys remember in the Panama Canal of Paradise what the issue was there? what they were talking about uh in uh the pandemic candle of paradise basically paradise 32 what do we spend a lot of time discussing
like the babies in heaven
yes do you see the symmetry here right and we we back then Bernard was telling Dante why is it that in the seat of in the in the red rose right beside God you have the greatest uh matriarchs in history, Eve, Mary, and Rachel and Rof, but you also had babies. And Don is like, "Wait a minute. I thought Virgil told me babies were all in limbo." And but you had these babies and we we decided that it was because of the uh unconditional love of parents,
36:10right? If a baby died and if a parent committed himself to unconditional love, praying to God, commit to good works, that effort would allow the child to ascend to the imperium. And here we have the complete opposite, right? It's an opposite. It's it's it's an inverse where the father is cannibalizing his sons in order to um survive.
Okay. Okay. So that's the beauty of the divine comedy. You'll find the the symmetry everywhere. Okay.
All right. So, um what is going on here? Why is uh Countino biting on the archbishop and why are they forcing in place and why is this happening for all eternity? I guess
I guess in the simple sense he's just trying to exact an appropriate revenge and that this desire which is still present in hell will just continue forever.
Why are they in a frozen lake?
Because they have no imagination to move them towards anything other than what they desire.
Uh yes.
Could it be that they've thrown away their free will because there's I find the line. But he's basically asking, you know, father, why don't you help me? Implying that he's looking for that external help rather than earlier on we spoke about how you can through your own free will help yourself.
Yes. Any other comments or thoughts? Yes.
And also like betrayal kind of freezes your relationship with the others and then like the others will also like no longer trust anyone because of these sorts of like betrayal. Yes. So like you are also freeze in a lake yourself after you betray the others.
Yes. Exactly. Any anymore?
Okay. Yeah. Exactly. Right. They're in a frozen lake.
These are frozen literally
38:11in time. Right. All they remember is the betrayal and they're first for revenge, the hatred. Okay. And the punishment is apt because just as um the archbishop forced the count to betray his sons and cannibalize his sons, now the count is cannibalizing uh the archbishop, but it's all futile because they're all in hell.
Uh but he doesn't care because he's stuck in that moment. Okay? He's not actually consider considering the absurdity of the situation. He's just stuck in that in that moment. And that's the idea of frozen lake.
Okay? That's why hell at the very bottom everyone everyone is a frozen lake because the treachery has frozen them in that moment of treachery and they can never escape out of it and they they lack the capacity to have free will to have the love imagination to think beyond this moment of of betrayal. All they focus on is how do I get back at at this person for the betrayal. Okay. And that's why uh betrayal is the worst punishment because the universe moves and betrayal treachery freezes the universe in place.
Okay, it reduces the capacity for imagination. Okay, does that make sense? Great. All right, let's keep on uh going. This is the very last.
Oh yeah, sorry. Sorry. Keep on going. We're not finished this yet.
Um line 76. When he had spoken this with eyes of again he gripped the sad skull in his teeth which like a dogs were strong down to the bone. Aisa you the scandal of the peoples of that fair land where sea is heard because your neighbors are so slow to punish you. May then Capra and Gorgona move and build a hedge across the Arno's mouth so that you may drown every soul in you. For if Count Ugalino was reputed to have betrayed your fortresses, there was no need to have his sons endure such torment.
Oh thieves renewed, their years
40:12were innocent and young. Brigata Ubuchi and the other two my song has named above. We passed beyond where frozen water wraps a rugged covering still other sinners who were not who were not bent but flat upon their backs. So Dante is moved by the story and he's upset about what? What about the story really upsets him and makes him very confused?
Yes.
That Countina was forced to sin and why well why would someone be punished in exactly the same way if they didn't instigate the betrayal? Okay. So, um he thinks that Count Ulano got what he deserved because he did betray Pisa and the people the pie were angry at this. Okay. But there's a problem here.
Yes.
I think maybe the problem is that uh Cal Ugalino's sons were actually tortured in the same way.
Yeah. Why the sons in prison? The sons did nothing wrong. First of all, why why the sons in prison? I believe it's to torture Count Ugalino, but I don't understand why they were subject to the same torture as Ugalino did.
Okay. Yeah. But but but but this is just a historical question, right? Why are children being punished along with the fathers? Yes.
Presumably, they would grow up and try and exact vengeance in the
Exactly. Right. This is true for most cultures at this time. You if you kill the father, you have to kill the sons as well because now now the sons are morally obligated to avenge the father. Okay.
And so Don is like saying this is unjust. Okay. And what what he's saying is like we have to remember we have to have faith that there are higher laws of justice that govern us and to punish the sons with a father. Yes, I understand the logic. I understand that it's necessary because you want to avoid wars, right?
Because at this time in history, family feuds are a real thing.
42:14Okay. But he says, "I understand all this, but it's still unjust." Okay? And again, at this time in history, it's pretty revolutionary. You guys know the story of Romeo and Juliet, right? Well, it's this time, okay?
The Monu and the Capulates, it is this time, these Italians city states in Verona, right? These feuds, these family feuds that go go on for generations, okay? It is it is this time in history. Okay. Uh let's keep on going.
Lie 94. Their very weeping there won't let them weep. And grief that finds a barrier in their eyes turns inward to increase their agony because their first tears freeze into a cluster and like a crystal visor fill up all the hollow that is underneath the eyebrow. And though because of cold my every sense had left its dwelling in my face, just as a callous has no feeling, nonetheless I seem to feel some wind now. And I said, "My master, who has set this gust in motion?
For isn't every vapor quenched down here?" And he to me, "You soon shall be where your own eye will answer that when you shall see the reason why this wind blasts from above." And one of those sad sinners in the cold crust cried to us, "Oh souls who are so cruel that this last place has been assigned to you, take off the hard veils from my face so that I can release the suffering that fills my heart before lament free presses again. to which I answered, "If you'd have me help you, then tell me who you are. If I don't free you, may I go to the bottom of the ice?" He answered, "Then I'm Fro Elberiggo, the one who tended fruits in a bad garden, and here my figs have been repaid with dates." But then I said, "Are you already dead?" And he to me, "I have no knowledge of my body's fate within the world above, for pollia has this privilege. Quite frequently the soul falls here before it has been thrusted away by a tropos. And that you may with much more willingness scrape
44:14these glazed tears from off my face. Know this. As soon as any soul becomes a traitor, as I was, then a demon takes its body away and keeps that body in its power until its years have run their course completely. The soul falls headlong down into the sistern and up above. Perhaps there still appears the body of the shade that winters here behind me.
You must know him if you've just come down. He is Sir Broncadoria. For many years he has been thus pent up. I said to him, I think that you deceive me, for Bronadoria is not yet dead. He eats and drinks and sleeps and puts on clothes.
There in the mala bronke ditch above, where sticky pitch boils up, Mikalli Zankke had not had still not come. He said to me, when this one together with a kinsman who had done the treachery together with him, left a devil in hisstead instead his body. But now reach out your hand, open my eyes, and yet I did not open them for him, and it was courtesy to show him rudeness. Ah, Genoez, a people strange to every constraint of custom, full of all corruption. Why have you not been driven from the world?
For with the foulest spirit of Rammania I found one of you such that for his acts in soul he bathed already in koshittas and up above appears alive in body.
Okay. So we have met the worst offenders. Okay. These are people who betrayed their guest. They invite their guests to dinner and now they're protected by the laws of hospitality.
Right? But they don't care. They betray their guest. And the moment they do that, what happens is they their sin is so bad they they automatically their souls are taken down to the ninth circle. They are trapped in the frozen lake and a demon takes possession of their body.
46:14Okay. And uh the example here is Brana Doria. Um and Donnie actually knows this person and Donnie knows this person is alive and he's saying that now a demon took over his body. Okay. So here's a question for you.
Do you think demonic possession or angelic possession is it real? Any thoughts? Any comments? And again there are no right answers, but I'm I'm curious as to what you think. Yes.
Well, if you grow up in Southeast Asia, in Malaysia or Singapore, there's udu magic as we all know. Um, so then or in Africa, like if you grow up in these regions of the world, it's impossible for you to conceive that a ghost or demon cannot take possession of a human being because you see it all the time.
Wow.
Not all the time like common sense.
Elaborate on this because why is it that like in these societies you see ghosts and demons, but we don't? Uh
okay
I recently moved back
but okay so um because I think it's because of the religion of the local people this kind of m magical practices is a lot especially Malays right like uh there's a thing like if you dig out that man's body and you take some liquid from his jar and you can make it into love potion the most common one everybody knows in Malaysia it's a thing okay like yeah and so like yeah so then then you can make the men fall in love with you or women and that's common practice and then you can do a lot of these.
How does dematic possession work? Um, so in Udu is like you do this spell and then you have this doll and then you stab it, right? And then like in in Malaysia or you know there there are a lot like you you ask this guy to come to your house, you pay him and then to curse that guy and then that yeah
there's a whole they have their own.
48:16So so what you're saying is do do you know about this? I don't know about this but but go ahead
from Catholic worldview um
there is Lydia in the Bible or whoever I forgot the lady's name but like there are people who are possessed by demons and Jesus had to cast it down but like go to the pigs and and the pigs drawn themselves so in Bible it's very common in Malaysia it's very common and yeah Africa
actually speaking of um my husband and I have recently watched a Tucker Carlson podcast with um a priest who is an exorcist,
right?
And um actually um you know it's it's an you know in in many cultures it's actually an ongoing thing. Um, and even in China, um, I I've heard that, for example, um, in the northeast there are animal spirits. And also growing up in Hong Kong, um, under certain bridges, there are people doing voodoo stuff. Um, you can pay someone to, um, let's say stab a pin into a doll or hit someone, hit someone's effigy.
Okay. Um,
so, so, so voodoo is across cultures basically.
Yeah. If you look at University of Hong Kong, there's a huge tomb. Okay. In the library. Have you have you been to University of Hong Kong?
I have. I I don't but I don't know about this.
Yeah. Like if you think out of all like Hong Kong is such a epitome, you know, of all these practices, fun and all that. But if you go to University of Hong Kong, there's a limb built for his wife and it's the the library look like a tomb literally to calm her spirit. So there's a lot of this kind of practices where people believe that.
So you guys believe in this stuff. I'm saying like if you don't believe in this stuff, what are your objections to it?
Who who is like this can't possibly exist? Yes.
I think that when someone commits a sin that seems to have a character that is
50:16beyond their normal character, that there's a life force inside of the sin, it's easy and tempting to assume that there is a a vortex of energy that creates consciousness that is separate from their own that has come into them. M
but it just strikes me that this is cope. This is people who really don't want to accept that maybe someone they know their friend or their family could do a sin that was so out of character.
Okay. All right. That's very interesting. Okay. Let let me ask you this question.
Okay. Did do we have a let me ask you this question. Um does anyone want to comment on how he or she has changed after reading Divine Comedy? like we've spent the past week reading Divine Comedy. We still have a few more days left, but has does anyone want to reflect on how he or she has changed after encountering Divine Comedy for the first time after reading it, after thinking about it?
Do you think you've changed as a person? Do you think? Yes.
Uh I don't believe that it can change people because before that maybe people thought, "Oh, I just cheat. I do whatever I can. nobody will you know get to know more about me and I just hide myself. So but after uh you know divine comedy maybe some people saying can have confessions maybe some people think they're guilty right because
okay
I'm not asking this as an thought experiment I'm just asking like have you personally felt different after reading the vine comedy?
Yes.
Yes. Yes.
Can you explain this? H it's hard to put it into words but um for me um especially after Paradisio uh as well as in like as we go through line by line the divine comedy um you you you you can't it's for me I feel like it's alluding to a larger truth um and it's a it's it's making me more open to the fact that there are things beyond this universe that I don't really understand
52:17because I I'm an a scientist engineer by training um I and then later on went into business right so I I um it's it's it's quite you know framework changing for me I don't know how to put
Have you um felt any physical changes to your body
like the first night um kind of like the first night I think I I I I mentioned this to some of our classmates like um um I find I find it hard to sleep actually the first few nights um even paradigio right um supposedly this good thing but I I I found it hard to rest uh as per my usual routine. Um mainly because I find all these imageries and all these things kind of kicking off thoughts in myself, right? Wondering about the nature of good and you know
so so these visions were appearing before you and you're trying to wrestle with these visions.
Okay, that's interesting.
Similar to in hell, right? like like like just just you know um we you mentioned something about I'm trying to square a circle, right? like uh the fact that there's Muhammad in there and there is um um um uh things about sodomy and homosexuality and like I I find myself trying to answer questions that weren't there before and like coming up with oh should I go talk to different people I know who are
and and and um so I don't know I don't I I I do think there is I just don't know how to you know
okay yes feel like there's way more awareness awareness and consciousness about uh the people we meet, the people we love and the people who loved us and I feel like first of all it's very tiring so every time like even though we have four hours four hours of class I feel like super tired at the end often take a nap and also I felt in dreams I thought of people that I I forgot and so you rethink um about certain moments of your life
54:18and how it's linked to of wow especially.
Well, that's beautiful. Thank you so much. So, you're expanding your consciousness, your connection to the cosmos, right? Okay. Anyone else have this will sound extremely strange, but a lot of my lymph nodes started draining when I really studied the divine comedy.
I think because my nervous system was really relaxing and genuinely a lot of like waste product from my body was being expelled.
Wow. Okay. Okay. So, you felt some physical changes. Okay.
Anyone else? Yes.
Yeah. Kind of I kind of felt the same cuz I dream like a lot more frequently for these few days. And also like I kind of agree what with what both of them said. I feel like I kind of reexamine my connection and relationship with the others. And then I kind of see like how it is so important to me that I have to cherish them.
And also like at the same time I was kind of like an atheist before reading the Divine Comedy. Now I cannot say that I entirely believe that God exists but I feel like I'm kind of like re-examining what I used to believe.
Okay.
Yeah.
Great. Thank you so much. Any other uh Yes.
Uh similar to the classmates I think uh dream dreams have been a bit different. Yes.
In the last few weeks. Uh like I remember on the first day we read the divine comedy I had like quite a vivid nightmare and I don't really have nightmares very often.
The only way I can try and understand it I think is usually in uh day-to-day life we don't really think about morality very much and its effect on us or others. So we're kind of numbed. But obviously in the last uh week or so, yeah, it's every day think yeah thinking about things we don't usually think about and maybe raising the consciousness.
Okay, let me ask you this. Has anyone tried psychedelics in this class?
56:20Uh yes. Can you talk about your psych psychedelic experience?
First of all, what did you try?
Psychedelic mushrooms.
Okay. So,
so a couple of times last year. So it wasn't like extreme but still like enough to feel like some extra forces. So it's really about uh same thing like social awareness. So you feel like positive negative energy when you like you feel happy and loved close to your friends and you feel really insecure in some environment that's like negative.
So so so I I want to confirm this. Okay. Yours like experience is very similar to you reading the vine comedy. It could be but like it's it's really hard to compare and I think like you can't reach this level of awareness just by reading or meditation like it's really like physical uh visual and about love like it's really strong and you can't like there's a 100% chance you feel something with this experience whereas by reading it's maybe like couple percent but a bit a bit but it's hard to compare it like
I actually would differ on that because Um I've also done transcendental meditation when I was a child and um I had a similar experience with Jay uh which is one night um I had a vision. I haven't had a vision for a long time since I was younger. So um and I've done other mindopening things. So um I I would I would say they're different in every way. It's just that um there's something pre precious or different about the reading and going through this journey.
Yeah. So, so my my argument would be well that's because you have not fully read the B comedy, right? We're just scratching the surface. If you really commit to it, maybe it be similar but but but did you want to share your experience? Yeah, I have to agree with
58:20um against you or the end point of a lot of like mushroom trips maybe less for LSD is basically the message of this.
Yes.
Where like
imagine if this is crystal clear your own revelations at the end of a trip are like slight flaws in a crystal. So it's your personality rewriting the truth that is contained here. And so it's very strange that when you really try to unlock your brain, this is the kind of message that you end up.
This is like really strange. Yeah. Let me ask you guys, let me ask you another question. Has anyone had an intense religious experience? Okay.
Yes. Can you can you explain to us your intense religious experience just in your life? Like you've gone to church.
Yeah. Yeah. That was definitely one um that's what made me actually converted to Christianity. So I always so after I went to Malaysia when I was 12, uh I lived in a pastor's family and just like two years after that I wasn't convinced about Christianity. I was oh that's cool.
Bible stories are awesome. And then there was one month where I had nightmares every night where I had this um visits from hell basically and I'm afraid to go to bed every night because I know what's waiting for me in my dreams. And I there was nothing traumatic happening in my life. There was no exam stress. There was no, you know, and then I was just terrified.
And then my pastor, uh, dad and mom were like, "Well, read the Bible verse out loud in your room and recite it." And that was the only night I didn't have nightmare. And the girl next to me, poor thing. She had a nightmare. And that was really gruesome. She said, "Did you left your room and come to my room now?" I'm like, "I'm so sorry.
Maybe I shouldn't have read the Bible out loud. My bad." And then so that kind of really convinced me of like hell existed and like so I had to scream the name of Jesus to get out of that nightmare. And then from that whole month of torture is over like if anybody swear to me oh there's no God in the room like you like come to my life be in that month
60:21and then like explain to me why is there all these crazy things that just make me Yeah. not being able to not believe there's no spiritual world.
So let me confirm what you're saying. You're you're you're in Malaysia and there's a lot of voodoo magic in Malaysia. So, it's possible there are lots of these spirits roaming around.
Yeah.
And these spirits were literally like knocking your door. But once you um found some incantations like you know some Bible verses, it changed your energy field as though to create a force field around you
protection. That's went to the next girl's room and she was like, "Anna, I never had a nightmare ever in my life." But last night you did have the nightmare I do now. I'm so sorry baby. You know the ghost left me and went to your room. Sorry.
Okay. So then the question then is why does this happen? Why is it like when you read the divine comedy you have these dreams and why is it like even your body physically changes? Why? Yes.
I could see this as a priming. So in psychology there's something called priming where you put something into your mind.
And so to have these words by reading about love, will and hope.
Um it like just so you have these words and so in every interaction you have you think of this and so it really changed what you're talking because like if you just read about love and then you're talking to your mother then obviously you're going to think about this. And so this is how it changes like the aspect about priming, putting words into your head and then always associating with with this.
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. This is what a psychologist would tell you. It's all priming, right? Because they've done experiments where uh if you if in the morning what you do is you get some sunlight and you put on some really nice music, you feel better about yourself and you have a nicer day.
Whereas if you um don't go outside and you put on some
62:21really sad music, you're gonna have a really bad day. Okay. So, a lot of a lot of it is priming a lot of its self-perception. Okay. Yes.
Um I loved having that conversation with her. Um we actually had a previous conversation in the elevator which probably primed our later comment about music. But actually when I have uh when I had the recent vision, it reminded me of previous visions where it felt like a resonance with the universe where I could see things in just a different dimension um and different colors. And it's the resonance with the rest of the universe that doesn't happen all the time for a lot of reasons,
but um it's resonance, harmony, that concordance that kind of comes when there's a really powerful work of art or mind opening that's happening.
Okay. Yes. Okay. I I understand that. But I'm trying to figure out the psychedelic experience then.
Explain to me how psychedelics work then. You you you explain how divine comedy works. It's priming. Yes. But how psychedelics?
So first of all like psychedelics what's different is that there's like 100% chance that it will change you like you will feel different. Uh so it's often seen as a trip where like you basically lose your consciousness and everything you know or knew and it basically makes you way more close to nature where you forget the conception of like technology, money, uh possession. And so during a couple of hours between like 4 to 8 hours you just feel basically like an animal where you rethink everything. You you basically like also you can't use your phone, right? Because like it's so not human that it changes you.
But no, I'm trying to figure out the neurological mechanism that allows for Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But just just just
64:21just one one last question. Okay. What's a neurological mechanism? You've explained priming. How do you explain psychedelics?
Um I think it's like some molecule like psyocybin or like something.
Okay. Yes.
I don't know. I think you're referring to um silosin which is the thing that breaks down from the mushrooms. But I think it all comes down to a molecule I think called tryptoamine which so basically in your brain there's a molecule that constrains your perception. So imagine your eyes are seeing fractals all the time and that your brain is basically organizing the sense data from those fractals into reality. And then if you boost a certain chemical a lot, you start to see the fractalss that your brain is using to perceive reality.
And this happens internally as well for your mind and being.
So if I extrapolate on what you're saying, you're saying that reality itself is much more complex, much more vibrant, much more colorful than we could ever imagine.
Way way more.
But and then these what these do is they basically uh cancel out your filter so you see more of reality,
right? But but that's all that's saying is like maybe demons and angels actually do exist, right? Is that is I mean is that the possibility?
I don't want to say 100% but you get that sense.
And so possession is also possible, right? Because what's because the idea is they exist. They're floating around us and um they you depending on your mood, depending on your state of mind, they can come into you. they can leave you, right? Is that a possibility?
Okay, so let me ask you this really weird question. Do any of you while we in divine comedy, do you feel intuitely as though Dante has entered you? Do you think at some level Dante has taken possession of you?
66:22Uh uh sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry so sorry uh you first and then
yeah yeah yeah definitely because uh I I think I don't know why you come here to this classroom but I do because I think I just been excelled you know I just uh you know uh I don't know just I think I'm out of the social system right now just because maybe uh I do my part-time job I don't just always like other people to to go to work all the day long so maybe uh that make me feel like like Dante you know I I just being driven away Right. I'm saying I'm like physically donating. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
I think so. But I'm lucky because I studied the Anid when I was 18 in Latin. Just luckily.
Yes.
And I for some reason have my own biatric in my real life like a girl who I'm super in love with who is now dating somebody who knows lots about wine.
Yes.
So in a strange sense this is I do feel him inside me in that sense.
Okay. and and and h and how do you how do you feel it? H how how do you know he's inside you?
Because there seems to be an energy directing me to be kinder to strangers and to spread more love that feels very physical because of how much power and energy it has, but that I've never been able to conjure in myself just from a desire to be good.
But how do you know it's Dante not an angel or another spiritual being? like like like what differentiates this from
well I don't want to presume I think it's dangerous to think that an angel can come into you um and
but you're presuming Dante who's dead can come into you right
well through his work
yes
I just don't want to think that an angel has come into me because it's a very slippery slope about what you might do then
okay yeah so so that's what great art is great art um becomes part of the universal consciousness and by reading it um if you read it well I'm not saying
68:24if you read it like you know what the way we're reading but I'm saying like if you read it over years and years and you continue have these visions and you continue have these spiritual experiences and you continue to practice divine comedy in your life then eventually Don is going to take possession of you and he's going to reveal things to you that were once unimaginable to you before and it's very similar to a religious experience. It's very similar to psychedelic experience. Yes.
Actually, professor, I would really appreciate it if you could share the changes that you experienced yourself as well cuz like if we went through like the divine comedy within a week and then we all experienced some changes to a certain extent and then you spent four years on it, I think you definitely experienced a lot more than we did.
Okay. So, I'll tell you some of my changes. Okay. Um, first of all, what's really obvious to me is I feel a lot lighter, like physically a lot lighter, as though I am almost like floating in the air. Okay?
Because, you know, um, when you're in China, like every day it's a pain in the ass, right? Because, you know, like when you're walking the streets, there's scooters flying around. Okay? when you go to the restaurant, often the food is going to be, you know, it's going to give you food poisoning. Okay.
Um, and then to and then you might get in an argument with someone with someone on, you know, it's it's a very common thing in China. So it's and like when when that happens what I feel is really heavy you know like just my blood boiling and just like you know like pure hatred and just pure anger, right? Just like just really I'm just really annoyed. Okay, because I love walking and Beijing is not a walking city and it annoys me. I I feel trapped.
I I feel like I can't go outside because if I go
70:25outside, a scooter might bump into me and I I'll get angry and and all that. Okay. So, uh but when I read the Divine Comedy, all that dissipates, right? And that anger, those memories for the reason they just float away and then I feel I floating upwards. Okay, that's one really obvious thing that I noticed.
Okay. But but but again, it's something that and I think it's because I've been reading Divine Comedy for a long time and I understand it pretty well. Okay. But so I'm saying like if you do read the Divine Comedy over time, I'm pretty sure you will feel the same thing where you feel yourself lighter. It's almost like you're lifting yourself up to the heavens.
It's almost like you can actually access the heavens yourself. Okay, that's that's one. Second thing is that um I feel much more creative. I feel much more imaginative. Right?
So when you in this class when when I teach, you can see I teach with imagination, right? I'm going to propose ideas to you. I'm going to propose situations to you that are really imaginative. And I think it's because as I am teaching, as I'm reading Divine Comedy, I have a cosmic connection with Dante. Um, and Dante in the universe, it's feeding me visions.
It's feeding me ideas. The difference between you guys and me is you've just started. So these visions are involuntary, meaning like they come to you and you don't actually know what to make of them. But if you practice this for a long time like I have, you're able to control these visions. You basically say, I need this vision in order to teach this.
Well, and the vision comes to you automatically. Okay, I know it sounds weird, but I have no idea what I'm teaching, what I will teach. Okay, and then on the cab right here, I know. Okay, I know what I want to focus on. I know what I want what I want to teach.
It's all
72:25it's all very uh inspirational. Okay, that's second thing. The third thing is like when you actually read Dante a lot, you feel a profound sense of purpose and mission which is like my responsibility is to share Dante with the world to change the world for the better. You feel as though if I really uh I I have a special gift for understanding tal for understanding Dante and I have a mission to spread this and and how do I know because I think Dante is smiling at me from the heavens. He's smiling at me and he's like um you're spreading my message of love and uh thank you so much.
So, you feel a deep sense of mission, but you also feel a deep sense of gratitude, uh, purpose, responsibility, and again, but but like the ultimate sensation, and I'm not sure if you guys ever had this, is you feel really light. You feel as though you're flying, you know, and you feel as though you're ascending upwards. It's almost like transcendence. Okay. Transcendent.
You're being transcendent when you read Divine Comedy. Uh, yes. Psych psychedelics. I totally agree with the first two, but I think it still has a lack of will and purpose at the end. So, you do feel like elevated.
You care less about small things about, oh, I'm late or oh, I like I don't have enough money or something like it really doesn't matter at all. You're connected to a way higher purpose.
Yes.
Um, so you do feel lighter and creative and you can direct your creativeness into uh for example me as a student learning. So you find new ways of learning and way more efficiently. Uh but we do like the actually um motion to actually do things and yeah it's really comparable.
Yeah, that's really interesting. Thank you for that. Any more uh questions
74:25before we continue?
Okay. All right. Uh let's Okay. So we are going now to the ultimate KTO of Inferno like the last KTO. Okay.
But before we do that, I want us to use our imagination. Okay? So, imagine we're we're we're in Hollywood and writing this movie and we we have the script already and now we just have to figure out the ending, right? And the ending of course is we meet Lucifer. We meet Satan.
This is the ending of Infernal. Okay. So, I want to use our imagination and ask ourselves if we are writing this movie. Okay. Uh first of all, how would we describe Lucifer?
What is Lucifer? And like how would we set the scene for the ending? Okay. And again, this is the ending, right? So, any suggestions?
Come on. Let's let's be creative. Let's channel Dante. Uh yes. Well, look, I know we've read the ending, but I'm just saying like, you know, let's use our imagination.
Pretend we have not. Okay. Yes.
Well, our initial big question is, is he tempting still or is he pitiful?
Exactly. Okay. So, the big question is temptation because that is what Satan does, right? He is going to meet Dante and say to Dante, I know you're going to meet you want to meet se meet, but let me tempt you with other things, right? Let me give you beautiful woman.
Let me give you riches. Let me give you a world of kingdom. Right? That's the most obvious thing you can do. Right?
Temptation. Just as Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, Satan will now tempt Dante in hell. Okay. So, that's obvious. What What were some other things?
Uh yeah. Yes. Maybe try to sign a contract because devil and the demon
76:25they always want to sign contract with make deal
a contract right for your soul right and and this is the plot of course for false and this is a very common thing uh yes well we have to show him tethered in some way where he is selling a path upwards to all the people he's giving deals to so but we know God cast him out of heaven forever. So his desire is to get back there. He's caused mischief on earth. So we need to show him if it was a Hollywood movie in some way tied to where he is in a way that he can never escape.
Um can you describe his appearance for us
in the poem or in
No, no, no, no. I I we know the what we know the poem. Okay. But I'm saying like if this were a Hollywood movie, right? What what how would he look like who would you cast to play Satan in this movie?
Uh
an AI character. most handsome person possible as decreed by a
I think handsome, right? Like like I like I think like really good-looking. Okay. Like maybe Brad Pit or Tom Cruz at their prime. Okay.
Like really hot, really good-looking. Okay. Because that's part of the temptation, right? So beautiful. And you know in the Bible, not in the Bible, like like Christianity believes that Lucifer was a beautiful angel, right?
The most beautiful of all the angels. So he has to be beautiful, right? And he has to be like um like really handsome and almost like a prince, right? Okay. Any other ideas for how how this will play out?
Yes.
Like to what extent we can relate with him? Like can we understand how he got himself there or do we just see him very
This is really good. Yes. Sympathy. Right. So Lucifer is going to tell us a story of how he was betrayed by God, right?
You think I'm the betrayer, but God betrayed me. And this becomes a plot line for
78:26Paradise Lost. But but yeah, no, um we have to sympathize with uh Satan because it's not just tempting Dante, he has to tempt us as well. He has to seduce us with his um with his story. Yes. Anything else?
one I would imagine him as a shape shifter
because well and it's part of temptation because um you kind of become whoever is the object of someone's desire.
Yeah. Well, I would say he's a poet, right? Because that's what a poet is. A poet is a chameleon. Okay.
A poet is always shifting words to please you. Okay. Lyrical. So when he speaks, it is the most beautiful poetry in Divine Comedy. It's lyrical.
That's poetry and he's a chameleon. Yes. Thank you. Anyone else?
Yes.
Like very cunning or like lying like a snake. So like how the temptation happens in the garden of Eden. It will be like did God really say this or like actually word by word he didn't really say that? And then kind of debates with you and makes you kind of believe. He has to be he has to be like he has to provide logical syllogisms right
he has to convince you
yes okay he will be very convincing right he'll use logic just as you know in paradise laws where Satan convinced Eve right it was a very logical speech
okay anyone else I'd read Paradise Lost before I read Inferno and so I was expecting it's like a paradigm shift or the Germans would call a gestalt shift. The gestalt shift where like my entire world war worldview changed because of um how Satan had had expressed his point of view and so it goes beyond sympathy to empathy um for him and I expect him to to use that persuasively. So yeah something beyond
80:27temptation would be persuasive and lawyerly. Yes. Yes. Like uh so every argument that I would have this is brother's carameliz every argument that I would have would be steelmanned by him and then broken down by him.
That's right. So not only do we have to sympathize with him, we have to be like feel that we are like him. Yes. Exactly. Yes.
It makes me think about CS Lewis's uh screw type letters. I think it was basically written about a uncle demon who is trying to teach his young uh nephew demon to seduce people. So it was all kinds of lectures from demons. So these letters to teach him how to seduce men and be like so it's really fun. So that whole book was written in a demon's perspective
which is very fun. But it's about Yeah. All of these mentioned above deception.
Where's Virgil in this movie? What happens to Virgil? Right. Because they went on this long journey together. What happens to Virgil?
Any any any What would you do with Virgil in this character? You know that Dante's being tempted, right? And Dante represents us and we know what Satan's doing, but what's Virgil doing doing?
I mean, I guess if it was a movie, he'd be transition to like a location where he would quit he would be watching over Dante but not involved in this scene at all.
Yeah. Yeah. You I think the first thing is that um Virgil would be trapped, right? Or he would be frozen, right? he'd be frozen and Satan would use Virgil as a bargaining chip and says, "Listen, your friend now is frozen.
If you love him, let's make a deal, right?" So, you can almost see the scene where Virgil and Dante come in and the first thing that happens is that Satan just snaps his finger and Virgil is frozen in place. Cannot move, cannot speak, and Dante is now terrified. Right? And now Satan will begin his temptation, tell his story, elicit sympathy, then use his logic to convince us that no actually the way we
82:28understood the universe is wrong. God is evil, Satan is good. That's why there's this rebellion. Um this basically helps plot Paradise Lost. Okay.
But but yeah. Um yes.
Um I think he'd also inspire fear.
Yes. Right. Um,
he has to inspire fear and anxiety.
Mhm.
Right.
In the beginning, but then he wants you to love him.
Does that make sense? Maybe in the beginning he want fear and anxiety, but then Yes.
He would also try to cause distrust between maybe him and Virgil.
That's interesting. Yes. Okay.
So, because Virgil is his best friend up to this point, and if he causes distrust between them and it makes him
that is great. Yes. So maybe not freeze Virgil, but um change Virgil and and show um certain things, certain flashbacks between Virgil and Donna that show that Virgil is not a reliable character. And there's quite a few of these scenes. Yes.
Makes me think about like Harry Potter where it's like kind of make you lose all hope or despair or like kind of breaks down of your fundamental belief of the world. Yes. And then where like the Harry Potter has to say expand no Patronas to expel all these darkness and despair in your life. So it's kind of the similar.
Yes. Okay. Okay. So this is all great. Okay.
And like um this is what a Hollywood movie would look like. This is what most people would be right. Okay. And guess what? We are completely and utterly wrong.
Okay. None of this happens. In fact, the complete opposite happens. Okay. All right.
This is what's shocking about the mind comedy. Um so we're going to read we'll now read the last KTO again this is what we should expect to happen this is what most people would write in fact a lot of people have written this in in uh in literature got GA with false Milton Paradise Lost you have Philip Pullman who wrote his Dark Materials trilogy um but that's how it happens
84:31okay so let's read count 34 and we're trying to figure out why uh this does not happen.
Okay. KTO 34 Vexil Refer toward us and therefore keep your eyes ahead. My master said to see if you can spy him.
Okay. So, they're now going to meet Satan and or Lucifer. Okay. Whatever name, the devil. Okay.
Just as when night falls on our hemisphere or when a heavy fog is blowing thick, a windmill seems to wheel when seen far off. So then I seemed to see that sort of structure. And next, because the wind was strong, I shrank behind my guide. There was no other shelter. And now with fear, I set it down in meter.
I was where all the shades were fully covered, but visible as wisps of straw and glass. There's some lie flat, another stand erect, one on his head and one upon his souls, and some bent face to feet just like a bow. But after we had made our way ahead, my master felt he now should have me see that creature who was once a handsome presence. He stepped aside and made me stop and said, "Look, here is this." And
this this is just a name for for Luke or Satan, okay?
And this the place where you will have to arm yourself with fortitude. Oh reader, do not ask of me how I grew faint and frozen then. I cannot write it. All words would fall fall far short of what it was. I did not die and I was not alive.
Think for yourself, if you have any wit, what I became, deprived of life and death. The emperor of the despondent kingdom so towered from the ice up from midchest that I match better with a giant's breath than giants match the measure of his arms. Now you can gauge the size of all of him if it is in proportion to such part.
So basically this guy's a skyscraper.
86:32Okay, he is huge. Keep on going.
If he was once as handsome and he now is ugly and despite that raised his brows against his maker. One can understand how every sorrow has its source in him. I marveled when I saw that on his head he had three faces. one in front blood red and then another two that just above the midpoint of each shoulder joined the first and at the crown all three were reattached. The right looked somewhat yellow, somewhat white.
The left in its appearance was like those who come from where the Nile descending flows beneath each face of his two wings spread out as broad as suited so immense a bird. I've never seen a ship with sails so wide. They had no feathers, but were fashioned like a bats, and he was agitating them so that three winds made their way out of him, out from him, and all causitus froze before those winds. He wept out of six eyes and down three chins. Tears gushed together with a bloody froth.
Within each mouth he used it like a grinder. With nashing teeth he tore to bits a sinner, so that he brought much pain to three at once. The forward sinner found that biting nothing when matched against the clawing for at times his back was stripped completely of its hide. That soul up there who is to suffer most. My master said Judas a scariot his head inside.
He jerks his legs without. Of those two others with their heads beneath the one who hangs from that black snout is Brutus. See how he rips and does not say a word. That other who seems so robust is Cashas. But night has come again, and it is time for us to leave.
We have seen everything. Just as he asked, I clasped him around the neck, and he watched for the chance
88:32of time and place, and when the wings were open wide enough, he took fast hold upon the shaggy flanks, and then descended down from tough to tough between the tangled pair and icy crusts. When he had reached when we had reached the point at which the thigh revolves just as the swelling of the hip, my guide with heavy strain and rugged work reversed his head to where his legs had been and grappled on the hair as one who climbs. I thought that we were going back to hell. Hold tight, my master said. He panted like a man exhausted.
It is by such stairs that we must take our leaf of so much evil. Then he slipped through a crevice in a rock and placed me on the edge of it to sit. That done he climbed toward me with steady steps. I raised my eyes believing I should see the the half of Lucifer that I had left. Instead I saw him with his legs turned up.
And if I then became perplexed, do let the ignorant be judges, those who cannot understand what point I had just crossed. Get up, my master said, be on your feet. The way is long, the path is difficult. The sun's already back to middle tears. It was no palace hall, the place in which we found ourselves, but with this rough hune floor and scanty light, a dungeon built by nature.
Before I free myself from this abyss, master, I said when I stood up straight. Tell me enough to see I don't mistake. Where's this ice and how's he so placed head downward? Tell me to how has the sun in so few hours gone from night to morning? And he to me, you still believe you're north of the center where I grasped the hair of the damned worm who pierces through the world.
And you were there as long as I descended. But when I turned, that's when you passed the point to which from every part all weights are drawn. And now you stand beneath the hemisphere opposing that which cloaks
90:32the great dry lands and underneath whose venth died the man whose birth and life were sinless in this world. Your feet are placed upon a little sphere that forms the other face of the Judeeka. Here it is morning when it's evening there. And he whose hair has served us as a ladder is still fixed even as he was before. This was the sight on which he fell from heaven for fear of him.
The land that once loomed here made of the sea a veil and rose into our hemisphere. And that land which appears upon this side perhaps to flee from him left here this hollow space and hurried upward. There's a place below the limit of the that cave its farthest point but from beaselbub a place one cannot see. It is discovered by ear. There is a sounding stream that flows along the hollow of a rock eroded by wind winding waters and the slope is easy.
My guide and I came out came on that hidden road to make our way back into the bright world and with no care for any rest we climbed. He first I following until I saw through a round opening some of those things of beauty heaven bears. It was from there that we emerged to see once more the stars. Okay, so the word we have for kennel 34 is antilimatic. Okay, this is not at all interesting or what we expected.
There's no sense of relief. There's no sense of drama. We build all the up all right to this kanto and it's just like a huge disappointment, right? We're expecting this beautiful uh Lucifer who would tempt us with poetry and uh I don't even know what he is actually. Okay.
Um so
92:34this is really paradoxical. Again the word is paradox. This makes no sense. Dante is not a bad writer. He is a briller.
So How do you guys feel about this? Yes.
My initial sense is that he doesn't want to risk priming us in any way bad. So he's, as we've been saying, if his poetry is priming us to put seeds in our brain of interesting thoughts, he doesn't even want to write the tempting words that Satan might have said to him down there in case it infects the reader even slightly.
Is Satan capable capable of speech? I can't remember reading anything in this that says he's not. But
we know he's actually not capable of speech. Why? Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Go ahead.
He's chewing on a sinners.
Yeah. So, his mouth is kind of busy, so he can't actually speak. But what else? Okay. All right.
Did you have a comment? Okay. We know he's actually not capable of speech. Not just because he's his mouth is busy, but also because why he the lake in which he's frozen flips no matter what aspect you look at him. So he's frozen from the middle to either extremity of his body and therefore there's no way his being can communicate.
Uh yeah, that's interesting. Yes. Okay, you're right. So, is he conscious? Is he conscious?
Let me ask you this question. If there's a mosquito on your neck, what do you do? Yeah, you hit it obviously, right? Is there a mosquito on uh Satan? Is there a mosquito on Satan?
94:34It's Virgil, man. What's he doing? Nothing. Do you understand? He's not even conscious.
What is he? He's not conscious, right? What is he really?
Uh NPC.
Uh I would say Yeah, I would say he's an NPC. I'd say he's even worse than an NPC. What?
He's like a zombie.
No, he's even worse than a zombie. Actually, you just look at it. Look at the words that Donna used to describe him, right?
Like robot.
He's even worse than a robot. What are the words that Donna us to describe him? He is a what? H he actually uses the certain words to describe um the um the Lucifer. What are the words he uses?
First of all, what what is what is Lucifer doing? What is he like literally doing?
It says he's the most It says he's a ship. What? I've never seen a ship with sail so wide. So like
these words what what's the words?
A bird. He says a bat and a bird. Where what what line?
Um well his wings are like
Yeah, his wings are like bats. But what is he? Read it carefully. What words are are being used to describe excuse me a grinder? Yes.
What else? There lot there lots of these. Grinder. What else?
96:37I think he said giant or like really big at some point where finding the line. Read read the poetry guys. He using specific words to describe uh
it's kind of animalistic. the find me the words
he says as suited so they meant a bird
bird this is a simile right I'm saying like what are the words that directly
number line six is blowing thick a windmill seems to will and seem far off
so so windmill what what's the next line
and in seven he says so then I seem to see that sort of structure
structure do you understand windmill structure tower he is a building. Okay? He is a machine. That's all he is. He's not even a He's not even conscious, right?
He's an air conditioner. That's literally what he is. He's a giant air conditioner blowing wind to cool the lake. Yeah, that's all he is. He's an ice blower.
Like, what is going on here? Okay, this makes no sense. I think yeah, it's the paradoxical source of cold. So if cold is molecules vibrating less and less quickly, somehow there has to be a source in this magic universe and that's him,
right? So his punishment, his betrayal is so great because he's betraying God that his punishment is that he's lost all consciousness right now. He's just a machine. That is how low he sunk. He's just a building.
He's just uh Yes.
Like I was thinking if he is conscious but he cannot do anything with his situation, wouldn't that be like a worse punishment? because now he is basically gone and then there's just his like like
98:38that it's it's just his physical being that is in hell and not his conscious or his soul. Like wouldn't it be a worse punishment if he knew what he was doing about it?
Is that what you're saying? He's comeoma. He's a vegetable
kind of. Okay. Um I don't Yeah. I mean like like I just frozen, right? Because consciousness requires experience.
Yes.
Would venture to say that's his just punishment,
right?
Lucifer's just punishment because
he was anything but. and now seems like this powerless inert frozen being that's just kind of not even um at its will or has conscience
right yes okay
and it is also funny that if god is the source of light and love and sun and you know everything energy heat then Lucifer it's a lack of so like going back to paradis so kto one you Stanza one.
Exactly. The mirror the opposite.
That's right. Exactly right. And remember like angels they all they they can never turn away from God. Right. The moment they turn away from God they become this.
Yes.
Yeah. I wonder not just in an ethical sense like um if God is all good but just in a a capability sense like I'm good at running um then having that lack of good in the capable sense. Satan, even like Ublino was good at being clever and locking people into that tower. And Satan is not good at anything because he can't do anything.
Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so I mean to answer your question, is it possible he's conscious but he can't move? And the answer is if you're conscious, he would be allowed to speak and talk about his punishment, right? Does that make sense?
100:39And the fact that he doesn't speak um means he's not actually even conscious. Uh yes. But I think he does have some level of comprehension because it does say that he's crying.
Right. That that is correct. Yes, he feels he is crying. Yes, that that's a very interesting comment. Yes.
And what what do you make of this? Because he's clearly not conscious.
Uh it's almost like that analogy of the sort of vegetative state.
Okay. Yeah. So it's possible he's conscious and he's crying. Yes. Uh yes.
Yeah. What I still don't really understand is we say um Satan or Lucifer was an angel but angels can never turn away from God. So how did he turn away from God?
That's a great question. Yes. Okay. That that's also a paradox. Yes.
Uh I think Lucifer reminds me of a giant data center. Uh it can host all kind of programs, can process information, but but uh ultimately it lacks it on soul.
Yeah. Exactly. So he's clearly a machine. Okay. But but let's try to figure out the question, okay?
Because all angels are staring at God. They're turning towards God. Um and then Lucifer turns away. Yes. I think this is quite a prosaic interpretation, but because he's the god of light, the sorry, the angel of light, it is in his essence, darkness is also essential to his being just by being the angel of light.
So, he's like the most unlucky angel because of all of the ones that would ever slip up and turn to the darkness, it's going to be him because as the angel of light, that's the only way um I can see.
Yeah. So, so what? Um, yes,
because I I've heard that the the God loved the Lucifer mostly. So,
he's supposed to love God, right? He's God's lieutenant.
Yeah. The love is is not limitation.
102:40Maybe Ken, you know,
right? So, so it's it's possible he was the lieutenant and he had free will. He he screwed up.
Okay.
But then he wasn't an angel because angels don't have a free will, right?
Right. No, but like remember when we were up in paradiso, there are different levels of angels. There are different categories of of angels, right? So,
but we said all angels have no free will. I thought
and conscious
or consciousness.
No, no consciousness and no free will.
Right. Right. Right. But but think think of them as you know organs in a body, right? They're they're all different.
They all serve a particular function. And this particular organ uh Satan chose to become a cancer. And so the body threw him out. But what he didn't recognize is that without the body, the larger body, you you as an organ have actually no no purpose. And so you just decay and and and become um dead.
Yeah. But he could still choose. But he still had a decision or he could make a decision. But but like if you have if you don't have a free will, then how can you make a decision?
Yes. I think that he was God's number two.
Yes. So that he didn't have free will, but he was about as close as possible that any celestial intelligence could get that. I know it's a it's a it's difficult for me as well, but I just think that it's God proving that whoever he gave like imagine he has to organize his power in a certain way with amongst angels to exact his will or whatever. the one the his number two the one he gives the most power to is the one most likely to betray him and turn away and have that capacity.
So was he was he always supposed to turn away from him?
That's a kind of a theme in Paradise Lost, but I'm not sure. It's a question I can ask.
Okay. All right. So So let's let's first talk about things we know. Okay. First of all, we know that God's gift to humanity was free will.
And free will is what distinguishes us from other beings.
104:41Okay, that we know from uh paradiso. We have free will and we can choose whatever path we want. Uh that's uh number one. Okay. Number two is the functions of the angels in the heavens is to basically um be organs of a body, right?
To maintain the proper functioning of the universe. Okay? So they don't actually have free will. They're just um basically servants. Okay.
So Lucifer was a headservant and he doesn't have free will. And so how does he turn away from God then? He doesn't have free will. How does he turn away from from from God? I just think it's in the nature of the number two to eventually try to be number one.
Yeah. It's it his nature has to be disobedience. Okay. That's the only thing that makes sense. Like it's his nature to be disobedient.
It is his will to turn away from God. That is his function. Turn away from God. Why that's the case, I don't really know. Okay.
So when God constructed this hierarchy then he must have willed this that he would one day turn away.
Yeah.
So God so Okay.
Right. So the only thing that he cannot will is it's us. He gave us free will. Okay. But everything else he willed into being.
Right. Right. Yes. Sometimes I think this is a little bit funny that it's almost like a father whose son is really good at table tennis, but the school he's sending his son to doesn't play table tennis. So he tries to get the school to play table tennis before his son attends it.
So God let Satan destroy the world so that Jesus would be able to have as big of an impact as possible.
Yeah, that's I mean that's what Christians believe, right? Okay. Um yeah
106:42that that's the idea here like like everything happens for a reason but if that's the case okay this creates another paradox which is there are three betrayers right three people are being punished and there these are the worst offenders in human history and they are Judas Escariat they are Brutus and Casius Brutus and Casius of course are the two who assassinated Julius Caesar but we know for a fact that there's a plan right the plan is to uh create Christianity. Buddhist and Cassus were crucial to this plan because by killing Julius Caesar that enable the rise of Augustus Caesar and the Roman Empire. And then and then Julius Scar is crucial this plan because without him there'll be no there will be no betrayal, right? And so Jesus would not be crucified. So like if it's all part of God's plan, why would these three be punished?
Uh yeah,
because it's a vision being shown to Dante to conscious minds that if you showed that evil people sometimes are part of God's plan, I don't think that's a good image to spread. Okay. Yes.
I don't I don't know Dante would be a determinist that he's been harping on free will this.
That's right. That's right. So that can't be the answer. Okay. Free will is the fundamental law of the universe.
Okay. So why are these three being punished?
Okay, so in theology I think they explain it like this if I'm not mistaken is that God has a plan for the world. He sees the ultimate ending of all your choices. He's kind of like AI, right? Like he he can foresee like alpha go. He can foresee your next step.
He gives you free will, right? As the competitor on the other side of the go game. Um, so he knows ultimately as AI can calculate by mathematical formulas that you are going to end up at this step. So like all the betrayalers, God can see that they're
108:42going to end up doing that. But God doesn't control and make you like you have to do that. But God just kind of like silently watch behind the curtain and be like, "Oh, you're going there. Okay, then there will be Jesus or you're going that then there will be the Holy Roman Empire." So he doesn't interfere. So he's not responsible for your fault.
So he's not willing, planning you, predetermining you to make that fall. But he kind of prepares like AI, he prepares like options one to 12, you know, depends on your, you know,
I understand that. But at the same time, they are contributing to the vine plan, right? Go ahead.
I I'm speculating. I don't have a conclusion yet. All we're doing is okay because like again if you you read all the commentary the scholarship on Dante no one knows what's going on like like what what's going on here right?
Um um I want to follow up on that point of um just uh the the perception and how psychedelics alters um the filters and the ability for perception. It's almost like God, the creator is putting up a play for all us humans to watch. Um the matrix, you know, whatever it is and um it's for us to watch and perceive, but even this is not reality.
Right. Okay.
And but it's meant to do something to open you up.
Okay. Okay. Right. I don't think Donnie is that complicated. Let's let let's focus on simple solutions.
Okay. Okay. So again like a razor we are looking for elegance. So so that that that's a great explanation. All these are great explanations but I'm looking for like a really elegant explanation for what's going on.
Okay. Let's move towards elegance, clarity and simplicity so that everyone understands. Uh yes.
Yes. Uh online uh chat. So how Lucifer managed constant adversity for mortals
110:44in any and every degree is God's will.
Okay. All right. Thank you for that. Uh yes.
So we had said earlier Augustine claims that God made hell and hell is good because it's cosmic justice. You cannot have free will without evil. I don't know if Augustine comes to a determination that God made evil or if evil is a byproduct of free will, but it seems like it they go hand in hand.
Okay. All right. So, um we're running out of time. Okay. But but but but let me explain what's going on.
Okay. There may be a divine plan. Doesn't matter. Okay. Because we are the divine plan.
The imagination is the divine plan. And so what what matters is not is this advancing um God's plan. That's not that's not what matters. Okay. The results don't matter.
It's a process that matters. What matters is what effect does it have on us. Okay. Now Brutus and Casser are important because how do they assassinate Julius Caesar? Do you guys do you guys know of Julius Caesar?
Who are these people? Brutus and Cas. Yes. So I think Julius Caesar was about to give a big speech and in the forum before they beckoned him in and said, "Let's have a meeting just prior to your big address to the Senate." And then they killed him.
Oh, no. But I'm saying like how do they get access to Julius Caesar?
By being his friend, comrade, helper. Yeah. Edu Bhutes. Okay. So you guys don't know this, but there's speculation that Brutus was his son.
All right. So remember this is this is um when was Julius Susa assassinated? Like what what year? 33. I can't I can't actually remember when he was assassinated.
Okay, but it's like 10 years after the these brutal civil wars when all these Romans were trying to kill each other and and then Julius Caesar was the only one left standing and everyone around him so 44
112:44BC okay but everyone around him were his best friends his most loyal allies and these were the people who betrayed him. Do you understand? Okay. So, it goes back to to the idea of betrayal of guests. But what this is is the betrayal of the host.
Does it make sense? They are guests in his house. He is basically emperor now. And they Yes.
But is it not is it not even worse? Is it because the Romans then later said that Jew Caesar is a god? So, it's betrayal of God maybe even.
Exactly. Exactly. That's right. after Augustus Caesar comes in power, he elevates Julius Caesar to divinity. Okay, so this is why they they're in hell because Buddhism cast not only they did they kill the host, right?
But they killed God himself.
That's but in the Christian from the Christian view, it wouldn't be from Dante, it wouldn't be a god like Jula wouldn't be a god from Dante's view.
Yeah. But then the question then is who is really massive of hell and who put these guys there?
Virgil.
Probably Virgil. Okay. Okay, because we know it's not Lucifer. Do you understand? Okay, this is why Divine Comedy, it is so brilliant because this is a a Hollywood movie, but it's a shock reveal.
Do you understand? It's a shock reveal. We thought Lucifer was the one in charge, but it was Virgil all along. Okay, because why else are Buddhist and Cas suffering like that? Okay, does that make sense?
This is the shock reveal. All right. But has Dante been tempted by Virgil? Right. We said that Lucifer's job is to tempt um Jesus.
Has Virgil tempted Dante? Has he succeeded in attempting uh Dante?
114:48Somewhat because earlier in the inferno it seems fairly clear even if there are some doubts that Dante does trust Virgil as
guide. Yeah. How how does he how much does he trust Virgil? Okay. The scene is this right?
What lets him out of hell is Virgil climbs Lucifer. Where's Dante? Virgil's the one climbing Lucifer, right? Where where is Dante? On the back of Virgil, right?
Do you understand this? Okay. So, they're climbing out of hell and they go into the sunlight. What does this remind you of? This this an allegory for what?
uh the like u medieval myth mythos of saving and like abduction or saving like the princess who's
much more much more simple than that. Uh yes
like the ear the one that flew and that got too close to the sun.
Oh, Icarus.
Icarus. Yeah.
Yes.
Oh, just stepping on the shoulders of giants to reach ahead.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting that that's what I'm thinking about. Okay. Yes.
Birth.
Yes. It's birth, man. Right. Think about how the mother takes you from the darkness into the light for her own for her exertion, right? It's marrying birth.
It's hell. It's complete darkness. And Virgil is climbing Lucifer with Dante on his back. And they go into the light. It's exertion, right?
So, has Virgil succeeded? Yeah. He's made Dante into his son.
116:48Once we leave Inferno, the temptation is complete. It's a journey into temptation, right? It's a journey into sin, into darkness. And now Dante is completely beholden to Virgil as his son. Does that make sense?
Yes.
Yeah. Because later we see as well that Dante misses Virgil.
Yes. That's right. Okay. Do you see how beautiful this is? It's anticlimatic, but it's perfect ending and it's it is so symbolic, right?
Does that make sense to you guys? All right. Any questions or comments about this? Yes. um metaphor kinds of makes me think about oh it's so evangelical to say but like so that like our third 100 years on earth it's kind of like this uh journey of in the mother's womb and growing and learning about the ultimate reality like Pluto said that he has seen outside of the cave and so that after this 100 years we are officially entering eternal life to live life to the fullest in heaven or whatever places.
So, it's kind of the same as this ending. I feel like
exactly another comment I I'll make is like that this the birth is an allegory for Donnie reading the Iniad, right, in Latin because at this time everyone memorized the Iniad in Latin and it's it's it's a really good way to learn Latin by the way. So, it's so it's it's a allegory for that like you reading a lot you reading the ad is like Virgil giving birth to you. Okay. So this is this is again the beauty of blank comedy. This now is a cliffhanger, right?
Because Lucifer has succeeded in tempting Jesus that the temptation is complete. And so the so now what's going to happen is we know we we've read paradise. Okay, we know that paradise paradiso it is vision and revelation.
118:51It mirrors um the book of revelation. Okay, we know that. We also know like inferno is really prophecy. It is a criticism of Italy. Okay.
So, what purgatory has to be is a pilgrimage or a journey. Okay? It's going to be literally a journey away from Virgil and into Beatatrice, away from hell and into heaven. Okay. And this is this is like the grand scheme of the line comedy.
All right. So when we come back, we're we're going to look at how Virgil is really Lucifer. All right. So enjoy your break. We'll come back an hour.
Um good afternoon. Um so a couple of issues from this morning. Okay. The first issue is why is Lucifer crying? We said he was unconscious.
Uh we said he was just a building. Why is he crying? Um this has to do with the idea that all beings aspire to be with God. Okay. The closer you are to God, the happier you are.
The further away from God, the the uh unhappier you are. And Lucifer because of his betrayal, he is now permanently away from God. And that's why he cries. Uh he'll cry for all eternity. Also remember in Limbo, even though Limbo is a really nice retirement community, it's just like Earth, a very nice um Italy, um they're all sighing because they can never be with God.
Okay? So that's why Lucifer is crying. That it doesn't necessarily mean he's conscious um but it just means that uh he's sad. Uh he has the eternal unhappiness because he is forever away from God. Second question that we discussed this morning that needs to be clarified is why did
120:53Satan rebel? Okay. And I said something really incorrect this morning which is like angels do do not have free will. In fact, they do have free will but they have perfect free will which means they have perfect obedience to God. Like once you reach perfection, free will is perfect obedience.
Okay? And that's what Oxen says in the uh city of God. So imagine a situation where in the beginning uh there were the angels and um this is before God created us and the angels they have free will and some chose to rebel like Lucifer and some chose of God and it's created the war in heaven right uh and uh this something that Milan writes about in paradise loss but there's this war in heaven and those who side with Lucifer they're cast into hell and those who sit with God um stayed in heaven and because they chose God uh they forever will look towards him and can never look away from him because they already made that choice and as such uh heaven is able to reach perfection. Okay. And this state of affairs also foretells our fate where remember there's a day of judgment and the day of judgment is do you choose God or do you choose Satan?
Those who chase choose Satan will be forever punished in hell and those who cho choose um um God will create heaven on heaven on earth. Okay? It will literally be heaven coming on earth. So that's the idea of um why Satan rebelled. He w he had free will and he chose to rebel uh because of his pride.
He wanted to be like God just as like how Adam and Eve ate the food in order to be like God. And um this caused a war in heaven and after this war um uh heaven became perfect because everyone became completely loyal to God. Does that make
122:54sense? Okay. So um what we ended with this morning is the idea that the real Satan, the real master of hell is Virgil. Okay? And that's why the Kanto is constructed the way it is.
So to further appreciate this idea, what we're going to do is we're going to go and reexamine Kanto 30. Okay, KTO 30 there um we don't have to go back yet, but Kandle 30, remember there's this argument, this fight and it broke up between Son and Master Adam. Master Adam is a counterfeit and they're trying to argue who's worse. Okay. Uh, master Adam is a counterfeitter who basically diluted gold to make Florence.
Florence is the uh currency of of Florence. And at this point in history, it is the most valuable currency mo the most um credible currency in the world because it's pure gold. And so when Master Adam he um dilutes the Florins, the the Floren burn him at the stake. Okay, that's how they that's how seriously they they took it. Um, Son is the Greek soldier who tricked the Trojans into letting in the Trojan horse.
Okay. And we're going to read um the speech by Son to the Trojans that convinced them to let in the Trojan horse. And they're trying to argue who's worse. uh the um the perjurer who is sin on the false witness or the counterfeitter um master Adam and we have to think about why this fight is happening. Remember, whenever Donnie creates a paradox, the goal is to make us think think much deeper about the underlying uh message, the underlying text.
Okay. So, first thing we're going to do is we're going to go and read the
124:55Iniad and this is book two where Inias is recounting the fall of Troy. And um so if you know the history, what happens is the Greeks try for 10 years to breach the walls of Troy. They can't do it. So like, okay, we're kind of stuck. And so Ulisses proposes the Trojan horse.
And so they pretend to run away. The pre pretend to run away. And they leave behind the Trojan horse. And of course, inside the Trojan horse are Ulyses, Achily, Achilles, all the great Greek champions. Um, it's a trap, right?
And the Trojans have the debate about what to do with the horse. And everyone's like, "Well, obviously this is a trap. Let's just like burn it, man." And then what what turns the tide is Son, the Greek soldier, comes in and he tricks the uh Trojans. Okay. So, we're just we'll read a um you know, about a couple hundred lines, but but I just want to get get you a feel for what's going on.
Okay. All right. Uh can you read, please? Suddenly, in the thick of it all, a young soldier, handshackled behind his back, with much shouting, Trojan shepherds were hailing him toward the king. They'd come on the man by chance, a total stranger.
He'd given himself up with one goal in mind, to open Troy to the Greeks, and lay her waste. He trusted to courage, nerve for either end, to weave his lies or face his certain death. Young Trojans's recruits, keen to have a look, came scurrying up from all sides, crowding round, outdoing each other to make a mockery of the captive. Now here the treachery of the Greeks, and learn from a single crime the nature of the beast, haggarded, helpless, there in our midst he stood, all eyes riveted on him now, and turning a weary glance at the lines of Trojan troops, he groaned and spoke. Where can I find some refuge?
Where on land, on
126:56sea? What's left for me? A man of so much misery. Nothing among the Greeks, no place at all. And worse, I see my Trojan enemies crying for my blood.
His groans convince me, cutting all our show of violence short. We press him. Tell us where you were born, your family. What news do you bring? Tell us what you trust to such a willing captive.
Okay, so this morning we talked about Satan, right? How if Donnie were to meet Satan then Satan would with poetry with lyrical poetry tempt him and the first thing that Satan would do is elicit his sympathy right and that's exactly what son is doing here going
all of it my king I'll tell you come what may the whole true story Greek I am I don't deny it now that first fortune may have made me a man of misery but wicked as she is She can't make sen a lying fraud as well. Now perhaps you've caught some rumor of calamities, Bellis's son, and his shining fame that rings in song. The Greeks charged him with treason, a trumped up charge, an innocent man, and just because he opposed the war, they put him to death. But once he's robbed of the light, they mourn him sorely. Now I was his blood kin.
a youngster when my father, a poor man, sent me off to the war at choice at Palamedes as Palmeus's comrade. Long as he kept his royal status, holding forth in the councils of the kings, I had some standing too, some pride of place. But once he left the land of the living, thanks to the jealous fork tongue of our Ulyses, you're no stranger to his story. I was shattered. I dragged out of my life out my I dragged out my life in the shadows, grieving, seething alone in silence, outraged by my innocent friend's demise until I burst out like a madman.
Swore if I ever returned and triumphed to our native Argos, ever got the chance, I'd take revenge, and my
128:56oath provoked a storm of hatred. That was my first step on the slippery road to ruin. From then on, Ulisses kept tormenting me, pressing charge on charge. From then on, he brooded about this two-edged rumors among the rank and file. Driven by guilt, he looked for ways to kill me.
He never rested until making calkets his henchmen. But why now? Why go over that ungiving ground again?
Let me stop. Okay. All right. All right. So this is a very long speech but the idea is with his poetry he's able to elicit sympathy and that convinces the Trojans to let in the Trojan horse even though the common sense uh tells them we shouldn't actually take gifts from strangers.
Okay, like we we shouldn't actually let this thing in. We don't know what it is. And that's really the power of poetry. Okay, so that's Son and that's why he's condemned to hell because he hijacked people's imagination in order to feed them a false narrative that destroyed their city. Okay, now we're going to Kanto 30 and I want to reread the argument between Master Adam, the counterfeitter, and Sion.
Okay, so this is line 91. Count 30, Inferno uh line 91. And this is after Master Adam told Dante story of how he engaged in counterfeiting. And so the Florentines burn him at the stake.
And I to him, who are those two poor poor sinners who give off smoke like wet hands in the winter and lie so close to you upon the right? I found them here, he answered, when I rained down to this rocky slope. They've not stirred since and will not move I think eternally. One is the lying woman who blames Joseph. The other lying Greek from Troy because of raging fever they so.
And one of them who seemed to take offense perhaps at being named so
130:56squalibly struck with his fist at Adam's rigid belly.
Okay. So I thought just asking Adam who are these other two people being punished here and Adam's like well. And so he names them and one of them Simon who for all eternity has not stirred. He just just lies there in a raging favor. That fever that's his punishment.
He hears his name and gets really angry and he takes takes offense and and punches Adam. Okay, keep on going. It sounded as if it had been a drum, and Master Adam struck him in the face using his arm, which did not seem less hard, saying to him, "Although I cannot move my limbs because they're too heavy, I still have an arm that's free to serve that need." And he replied, "But when you went to burning, your arm was not as quick as it was now. Though when you coined, it was as quick as more."
So now they're just um insulting each other. Okay. Uh keep on going. to which the drop seed one hear you speak true but you were not so true a witness there when you were asked to tell the truth at Troy if I spoke false you falsified the coin said son I'm here for just one crime but you've committed more than any demon
so son's like well I spoke false but you falsified the coin right and in most country in every country you would get punished a lot more for counterfeiting than you would for lying right In fact, um I I I think the worst punishment is counterfeiting, right? Uh sorry, the worst crime is counterfeiting, right? Um what does a secret service do in the United States? It it looks for counterfeits. Okay?
It's a very serious thing. And when Isaac Newton was head of the mint in in the in the in England, if he c if he caught you counterfeiting, he would like basically uh torture you to death. Okay? It's a very serious thing. And so s's like just pointing this out.
Point this out. Like you fing on the coins is a lot worse than what I did. All I did was just lie. Right. Uh keep
132:58on going.
Not forget the horse you perjurer replied the one who had the bloated valley. May you be plagued because the whole world knows it.
And what Adam says is that for your lie you let the trojans let in the children and that destroy the children civilization. Okay. Uh so the conse consequences were much worse. and you be plagued by thirst that cracks your tongue and putrid water that has made your belly such a hedge before your eyes. And then the corner, so as usual, your mouth because of racking fever gapes.
For if I thirst and if my humor bloats me, you have both dryness and a head that aches. Few words would be sufficient imitation to have you lick the mirror of narcissists. I was intent on listening to them when this was what my master said. If you insist on looking more, I'll quarrel with you." And when I heard him speak so angrily, I turned around to him with shame so great that it still stirs within my memory.
Okay. So, what is um strange about this? What's going on? What What stands out about this story, about this passage? What does Virgil do here that he's never done before and he'll never do again?
Actually,
he's stopping the conversation. is stopping Dante from digging deeper.
Okay. But he's done that before, right? He's switched topics. He's uh but but he's but here he's he's doing something that he's never done before and he'll never do again.
He threatened Dante.
He's angry with Dante, right? He's never done that before. Okay. So, what what's he angry about? Why is he angry?
All right. So, the paradox is this. Okay. Virgil is angry at Dante because Dante is watching a fight between Master Adam and Son,
135:00right? And and Master Adam and Son are arguing who's worse. U Master Adam says you counterfeited the coin so you're worse. And then what should mass Adam's response be? You count the counterfeit the coin.
That's pretty bad. But something actually worse than counterfeiting the coin, which is what?
Yes.
Counterfeiting a gift in the sense that it's a poisoned gift.
Um, that's interesting. What's the worst thing you can do in university? Plagiarism. Right. Plagiarism.
Plagium is a lot worse than counterfeiting the coin, right? If you're at university and you started to counterfeit money, yeah, they might throw you in prison, but if you plagiarized, you would be thrown out of university forever. But so what is son plagiarizing? Do you do you guys know? Is it something that somebody says in the Bible that
you read the Iniad, right? What is that plagiarizing?
I can't remember. I'm sorry.
You guys don't learn this in school.
It was just for Latin translation, too.
Oh, okay. So, you read parts of it.
The major parts. Yeah. But
what what does plagiarizing mean?
Oh, plagiarism means to steal ideas from other people and pretend it's your own. Well, he stole poetry maybe
from who?
Virgil and not at Homer.
Yeah. So Virgil stole from Homer, right? The Iniad stole from the Iliad and the Odyssey and it corrupted the Iliad in the Odyssey. Much the way that a counterfeitter corrupts coin, right?
You understand? A counterfeitter takes real gold, dilutes it, add some lead, and pretend it's real gold. A what
137:01Virgil did was he stole from the Aladdin Odyssey, polluted it and pretend it's real poetry. Do you understand? Okay. So, this is drawing attention to the fact that basically Virgil plagiarized uh Homer and this and this is why Virgil is angry because what what does a plagiarizer hate the most to me? being found out, right?
Being accused of plagiarism, right? Um, and so Virgil's very, very angry. What's the paradox here? Excuse me.
Is it that he's the guide to hell?
Yeah. Like, why is Son burning here and Virgil's okay? Right. Because it's Virgil who created the character Son and allow Son to lie. It's not Son that's a problem.
It's the Inads that's that's a problem. Okay. Does that make sense? Yes.
Like before he died he was like please burn all this stuff. That means that his consciousness knows that what he did was wrong. So he sort of repented before he died.
Yeah. But if he repented then where where should he be?
Uh heaven. No, actually
Nimbo, but which he is, but
No, no, he should be in purgatory.
Oh, purgatory. Right.
Yeah. Okay. So, that's not the answer. Okay. It's possible, right?
But again, this is raising a paradox, which is like why is Son here when the real culprit, Virgil, the plagiarist, he's walking free around hell? He's able to control hell. He's able to uh decide uh that cases and Buddhists will be tortured by Lucifer. Yes.
139:01Well, I think because Simon actually believes that he did something wrong and Virgil believes that he did nothing wrong when he stole. So I think Virgil already forgived himself for what he did, but Simon can forgive himself for what he did to the to the Trojans. Okay. Um, that's interesting. Okay.
Does Son think he did anything wrong? He knows he lied, but he did he do anything wrong.
Is it that Virgil admits that he did plagiarism by being angry at being accused of plagiarism?
Well, no. He's angry because he doesn't want to admit it, right? Okay. So again, this could all this creates all these paradoxes here. And so I want I want you guys to keep this at the back of your mind.
Why is it that Virgil is not punished at all for his crimes? And why is hell structured the way it is? Uh yes. But if Virgil is basically like Lucifer, then his main aim is to deceive Dante. So therefore, he can't in front of Dante be seem to be punished for his sins.
Uh but I I don't understand this. His main aim is to deceive Dante, to tempt Dante. I understand that. But why would he be allowed to do that?
Uh yes,
I think that He's made the master of hell. And one of the key things of the anid was about duty and the killing of turnis. And I was thinking about this why it's such a beautiful thing that Virgil is the guide and master of hell that many many people who sin do so because they're they feel forced by themselves. And so Virgil's
141:02not being punished, but his punishment is that he has to guide everybody around because it's the very force that the Anerid put into people's hearts that made them sin in years to come.
Um, okay. That's interesting. But, but, uh, the fact is that Virgil is not not the guide of hell. He's got the guy to Dante. He's he was appointed by Beatatric to be the guide, but he's usually in limbo.
Okay. But he can run around hell. He's very he knows hell very well, right? If he's able to climb uh Lucifer, then he knows hell like the back of his hand. So, but but but again, these are all paradoxes and as we go into uh purgatory, the answers will be revealed to us.
Okay. All right. So, this is purgatory one. Purgatory Cantal one to course across more kindly waters. Now my talent's little vessel lives her sails leaving behind herself a sea so cruel and what I sing will be that second kingdom in which the human soul is cleansed of sin becoming worthy of ascent to heaven.
But here since I am yours, oh holy muses, may this poem rise again from hell's dead realm. And may Calopi rise somewhat here accompanying my singing with that music whose power struck the poor pierodis so forcefully that they despared a pardon. The gentle hue of oriental sapphire in which the sky serenity was steeped its aspect is aspect pure as far as the horizon.
Okay. So let me test your memory. Okay. So again there's parallels parallelism uh symmetry in divine comedy. Um here he's saying I want I now want to write about purgatory.
I now sing about purgatory. So muses come and give me inspiration. Okay. In paradise when he was writing about the heavens who did he call to inspire
143:02him? Apollo and the muses. Okay. Do you understand? So he's saying here purgatory uh the muses inspire me.
But in heaven, I need everyone. Apollo, the muses, everyone to fully inspire me. Okay, keep on going. Line 16. Brought back my joy in seeing just as noon, as I had left behind the air of death that had afflicted both my sight and breast.
The lovely planet that is patronis of love made all the eastern heavens glad, veiling the Pisces in the train she led. Then I turned to the right, setting my mind upon the the other pole, and saw four stars not seen before, except by the first people. Heaven appeared to revel in their flames. Oh, northern hemisphere, because you were denied that sight. You're a widowerower.
After my eyes took leave of those four four stars, turning a little toward the other pole from which the Wayne had disappeared by now, I saw a solitary patriarch near me. His aspect worthy of such reverence that even son to father owes no more. His beard was long and mixed with white as were the hairs upon his head, and his hair spread down to his chest in a divided dress. The rays of the four holy stars so framed his face with light that in my sight he seemed like one who's confronted by the sun.
Okay, stop. Okay, so the solitary patriarch, he is the master of purgatory and his name is Kato. Can someone tell me why having Kato as a master of purgatory is such a paradox? Yes.
Because he was born before the time of Jesus. So he should be in limbo.
Exactly. Okay. Number one is he is not a Christian. He is not a Christian. Virgil told us explicitly that unless you are baptized, you cannot leave limbo.
Uh yes,
145:03I think if my memory serves historically that Kato was seen to be somebody who was so talented that whenever he did anything it was like he had done it from birth like like he knew how to do it from birth. So for him to be the master of purgatory that you live and then this is your journey to heaven, it's ironic because he seemed to have grasped everything very quickly in his life.
Okay. Sure. Okay. But but but that's not necessarily a paradox. Like the fact that he is not a Christian, that's a paradox.
But there are some other paradoxes as well. Why should kill not be in purgatory? In fact, he should be infernal. Why? Was he amongst the people who killed Caesar?
No, but he rebelled against Caesar,
right?
He rebelled against Caesar. He was on the side of um Pompei. Um so if I'm I'm trying to figure this out. If Julius Caesar is in limbo and if the people who killed Julius Caesar uh Buddhist and Casius are the worst people in the world and Kato fought against Caesar. Why is Caesar master of purgatory?
Okay, that's that's another paradox. And there's one more paradox and it's actually the most this is actually the biggest paradox. How did he die? Suicide, right? Suicide in Catholic theology at this time.
Suicide go straight to hell. No questions, no doubts. Straight to hell, guys. Okay, so we have three axes against Ko. He's not a Christian.
He rebelled against Caesar and he killed himself. Okay, so he should be in a circle of violence with the other people who committed suicide. He used to be a tree and now he's massive purgatory. So, something is really weird going on.
147:04Okay. Uh, yes.
I'm not sure how he why he committed suicide, but I would guess it's because of his honor for um whatever um the side that he served for for Pompei. I would guess maybe
he committed suicide because his side was losing and Caesar was offering clemency to everyone, right? And so what was going to happen is Caesar would have come to Ko and says, "Ko, I forgive you and will you please be a senator?" And Ko's like, "I don't want this crap. I'm going to kill myself because that's the honorable thing to do." Right? He he did not want to give Julius Caesar the opportunity to show clemency. So that's pretty bad, right?
I mean, to kill yourself for this like like it's kind of petty really, right? All right. Um, so that's Ko and Ko and Virgil knew each other, right? They're they are contemporaries. So Virgil and Dante are now in purgatory.
Ko comes up and he sees Virgil. How should he react? I mean, how would you react if you saw someone from like a a a previous life? Yeah, you'd be pretty happy, right? You'd be pretty happy.
Like a childhood best friend who you haven't seen for like 40 years. You're like, "Oh my god, I run into you in the streets of Rome. Let's chat. Let's get a coffee. Let's reminisce." Right.
Yes. Is is this a suspicion that Virgil put Kato there in some way or or that he was responsible for Kato being placed there
in purgatory? Okay. Because Virgil, where's Virgil
at this moment or in general? In general. In limbo? In limbo?
In limbo, right? And why in limbo? because he was brought up there as by
149:07there there's only one reason why he he he's in limbo according to to to Virgil. He's not a Christian, right? He was not baptized as a Christian. That's the only reason, right? So, it doesn't make any sense why he would uh tell us this and then put Ko in purgatory.
Okay. All right. So, yeah, we would imagine that Virgil and Ko are good friends and it would be a happy reunion. Okay. Uh let's keep on reading
line 40. Who are you? Who against the hidden river were able to escape the eternal prison? He said, moving those venerable plumes. Who was your guide?
What served you both as lantern when from the deep night that will always keep the hellish valley dark you were set free? The loss of the abyss. Have they been broken? Or has a new changed decree in heaven let you though damned approach my rocky slopes?
There's a really ironic sentence here. What is it? What's a really ironic sentence in the speech? It's really ironic. Nope.
Where's your kid be? He should be in limbo at least, right? So So what does he say that? That's kind of ironic. It's like uh what?
That he knows what hell is like?
No, no. I'm saying like what did he say in the speech? That's ironic.
Were you able to escape?
Yeah. Like how did you get here? It's like, well, okay, Ko, but how did you get here? Right. That's kind of ironic, right?
How are you able to escape the eternal prison? The ideal prison is like no one can escape it, but he did. All right. So, it's ironic.
151:07All right. Uh, keep on going. Line 49. My guide took hold of me decisively by way of words and hands and other signs. He made my knees and brow show reverence.
Then he replied, "I do not come through my own self. There was a lady sent from heaven. Her, please let me to help and guide this man. But since your will would have a far more full and accurate account of our condition, my will cannot withhold what you request." This man had yet to see his final evening, but through his folly, little time was left before he did. He was so close to it.
As I have told you, I was sent to him for his deliverance. The only rule road I could have taken was the road I took. I showed him all the people of predition. Now I intend to show to him those spirits who in your care are bent on experation. To tell you how I led him would take take long.
It is a power descending from above that help me guide him here to see and hear you. Now may it please you to prove his coming. He goes in search of liberty. So precious as he who gives his life for it must know. You know it.
who in Utica found death for freedom was not bitter when you left the garb that will be bright on the great day.
Okay. So he's ref referencing Virgil is referencing how Ko killed himself in Udica rather than submit to Caesar. Okay. All right. Come on.
Line 76. Eternal edicts are not broken for us. This man's alive and I'm not bound by Minos. But I am from the circle where the chased eyes of your marsha are. And she still prays to you, oh holy breast, to keep her as your own for her love then inclined to us.
Allow our journey through your southern realms. I shall thank her for kindness you bestow. If you would let your name be named below.
Okay. So, um, Virgil is telling, uh, Kato,
153:07uh, why they they're they're here, and Virgil explains that Dante is not dead, so he can move around. And he he who was not never sentenced to the inner circles of hell, so he's free to move around. And also, Ko, hey, uh, your wife Marcia, she's with me, and if you help us, then I'll go back and help Marcia. Okay. Does it sound like friends to you?
All right, we'll keep on reading. Okay.
9 85. While I was there within the other world, Masia so pleased my eyes, he then replied, "Each kindness you required, I satisfied."
Okay. So, he's saying before, he was in limbo. Okay. Right. Before I was in limbo of Marcia.
Keep on going.
Now that she dwells beyond the evil river, she has no power to move me any longer. Such was the law decreed when I was freed. But if a lady come from heaven speeds and helps you, as you say, there's no need of flattery. It is enough indeed to ask me for her sake. Go then, but first wind a smooth brush around his waist and bathe his face to wash away all of hell's stains.
For it would not be seemly to approach with eyes still dimmed by any mists. The first custodian angel one from paradise. This solitary island all around its very base there where the breakers pound bears rushes on a soft and muddy ground. There's no other plant that lives below. No plant with leaves or plant that as it grows hardens and breaks beneath the waves harsh blows that done do not return by this same pass.
The sun which rises now will show you how this hillside can be climbed more easily.
So um Virgil says how does K respond to Virgil's speech?
155:12Anyone
rather sarcastic or or or
does he like does he like Virgil? He hates Virgil.
He's like, "Don't mention Marcia to me, you asshole." Okay,
I want to help you because Beatrice uh told me to, but that's why. Not because uh you can help Marcia. Okay. So, they're they're like enemies. They don't really like each other.
And this makes you question who Virgil really is, right? What is Ko not like U Virgil? Yes.
Um in in line 95 96 he tells him um that his face and body should be washed of hell basically. So he he knows that Virgil is hell itself or like he he has so much so many like
yeah this is a really really interesting reading right so literally just means Dante has been through hell and his face is dirty right because hell is like lots of dirt and fire so go wash your face because this is purgatory and but you can also say that it's metaphorical in that Um, Virgil has corrupted Dante in this journey by feeding him a lot of lies about um about hell. So, what's important is for Dante to begin to cleanse himself of Virgil's lies. Okay. Right. To remove Virgil's influence from himself.
Yeah. That that that's a very interesting reading. Yes. Okay. All right.
Uh let's let's keep on reading. 9 109 With that he vanished and without a word I rose and drew in closer to my guide and it was on him that I set my eyes and he began sun followed my steps.
157:14Let us go back. This is the point at which the plain slopes down to reach its lowest bound. Daybreak was vanquishing the dark last hour which fled before it in the distance. I could recognize the trembling of the sea. We made our way across the lonely plain like one returning to a lost pathway who till he finds it seems to move in vain.
When we had reached the point where Dio contends the sun and undersea winds and the shade winds out because it won't evaporate. My master gently placed both of his hands outspread upon the grass. Therefore, aware of what his gesture and intention were, I reached and offered him my tear strained cheeks, and on my cheeks he totally revealed the color that inferno had concealed. Then we arrived at the deserted shore, which never yet had seen its waters coursed by any man who journeyed back again. There, just as pleased another, he g me.
Oh wonder where he plucked the humble plant that he had chosen. There that plant sprang up again identical immediately.
Okay, so we are um in the beaches of purgatory. Okay, so purgatory is a mountain and in order to cleanse yourself, you climb up this mountain and in each terrace of the mountain, you have to do an activity to cleanse yourself of the seven um uh deadly sins. Um but we are not on the mountain yet. We are outside the mountain on the beaches. This is something a place called anti-purgatory which is people who uh repentant late in life and so they must wait and fully uh serve their penance before they're allowed to enter purgatory.
Once they enter purgatory and they cleanse themselves then they are able to ascend to heaven. Okay. Uh yes.
So is there a sense of time in purgatory?
Uh that's a really good question. Um, so what Dante is going to do a lot is talk about the sun rise. Okay. And um, one thing that's really important us to keep
159:15in mind is that the rules governing purgatory are different from the rules governing hell. Hell is like eternal torment. There's no time. It's all just fire and darkness. But in purgatory, there's night and day.
And you can only climb during the day. At night, you have to rest. And it's gonna be very important for us because during the night you dream, right? Um, so the dreams are going to be very uh important as well. Okay.
So there's time, but I don't I don't but like I don't know how to tell time because a lot of of this is astronomy, right? Reading the stars, figure out where the sun is. And I I I actually don't know how that works. Okay. Because you say that the the the mind creates time and space to uh to um see reality or like to percept reality.
Why did we create time in purgatory to accept purgatory or like it's time out of ourselves in that sense?
Okay, this is a really interesting question because one very important idea in purgatory is that you have to serve your time, right? It could be a million years and it could be a thousand years. And so I think the idea of time in purgatory is it's not physical time, right? It's not like, you know, you actually uh keep a clock and you wait 10,000 years. It's really about emotional time.
So basically, it's like you're meditating and you're med you're meditating and trying to cleanse your soul. And um it doesn't we don't actually know physically how much time it takes. Okay. But there there is a time element to it. Does that make sense?
Okay. So so um um I really don't understand time well in purgatory. Okay. All right. Uh let's let's keep reading.
161:17Kanto 2. By now the sun was crossing the horizon of the meridian whose highest point covered Jerusalem and from the Ganges night circling opposite the sun was moving together with the scales that when the length of dark defeat the day desert knight's hands so that above the shore that I had reached the fair aurora's white and scarlet cheeks were as Aurora aged becoming orange. We still were by the sea like those who think about the journey they will undertake, who go in heart but in the body stay. And just as Mars, when it is overcome by the invading mists of dawn, glows red above the wat's plane low in the west, so there appeared to me, and may I see it again, a light that crossed the sea, so swift there's no flight of bird to equal it. When for a moment I'd withdrawn my eyes that I might ask the question of my guide, I saw that light again, larger, more bright.
Okay. Sorry. Okay. So to continue your your question, um clearly there's time here, right? And there was no time in hell.
So um we we discussed how we create time and space with our uh imagination. So um I think the idea here is that in hell we're just trapped in hell. There is no time in space because um we're just trapped there. Whereas in purgatory um there's now motion meaning there is now free will meaning there is now agency. There's more um you you can now act actively participate in life.
There's not does that make sense?
Yeah. But KTO was uh no Kato was in hell before, right? So how did he escape without a free will? If you say there's no free will in in hell. Yeah, that that that again is a paradox.
Okay. And here we will just have to use our imagination. Does anyone know how we can resolve this
163:19paradox? Yes. And my memory is quite hazy, but I thought that maybe it was Jesus or some redeeming force who is shunting people up. Shunted the very best souls up from inferno and that they didn't make it to heaven, but then they were either in limbo or therefore in purgatory.
Exactly. Yeah. So what we know is that Jesus did take away with him the best souls, but the people he took were like off the Hebrew Bible, right? David, Abraham, Moses. What is Ko doing with them?
Okay, so this is hard. Okay, but one possible solution is this. Um so what we learn in paradise is that uh there are certain people who are born before the time of Jesus. And even though they were not officially Christian and that they were baptized, they were Christian that their heart was in the right place. Okay?
And they knew that Jesus was coming. And so they they prepared for the coming of Jesus even though they did not see Jesus in their lifetime. Does that make sense? And Ko must have been one of these individuals who knew Jesus was coming and he submitted himself before Jesus even though and he didn't live long enough for the coming of Jesus. And when Jesus went down to hell, he could see um that Ko even though he was not officially Christian, he was in his heart Christian.
Okay. Does that make sense guys? Yes. with the Catholic doctrine as well. the kate is very well um embracing not
165:19really but I don't know what's the right word but yeah of the people who fundamentally in essence has this doctrines or you know leave out the life of faith however you define faith but yeah
yeah and and and and later on we will discover people who who are actually like that okay they did not convert to Christianity in their lifetime but in their hearts they were Christian okay uh before Jesus is came they were already Christian and that's why they were able to ascend to purgatory as well as to paradise okay we'll learn more about this later on right uh yes
yeah so but I have question because just you said only your heart is not enough for you to go to the heaven but you have to baptize right or
yeah but but but that's what they're saying here it's not the act that matters it's the heart that matters it's the will and the desire that matters okay um okay yes Jesus also said that greater is the he who has faith before he has seen it. So it's a lot of these people before he was born sort of believed in him or believe in some sort of this idea of redemption a messiah then they have greater faith than the disciples like Peter or John who has seen and put their hands through Jesus Peter's hands uh that you know these forefathers whoever they are in the earth yeah deserves.
Yes. Okay. So that that's a logic. Okay. And and again, we'll never know.
It's it's a paradox created uh by divine comedy. But this is one way to resolve this paradox. All right. Okay.
Line 22. Then to each side of it I saw a whiteness, though I did not know what the whiteness was. Below another whiteness slowly showed. My master did not say a word before the whitenesses first seen appeared as wings. But then when he had recognized the helmsmen, he cried, "Ben, bend your knees.
Behold the angel of God and join your hands. From this point on, this is the kind of minister you'll meet.
Okay? So, it's these angels that are
167:21guardians of purgatory. Okay? Before in hell, there were these demons. Now, there are these angels. So, at each major checkpoint, there are these angels.
Uh, keep on going.
Line 31. See how much scorn he has for human means. He'd have he'd have no other sail than his own wings, and use no ore between such distant shores. See how he holds his wings pointing to heaven, piercing the air with his eternal pine, which do not change as mortal plumage does. Then he, that bird divine, as he drew closer and closer to us, seemed to gain in brightness, so that my eyes could not endure his nearness.
And I was forced to lower them, and he came onto shore with boats so light, so quick that nowhere did the water swallow it. The helmsman sent from heaven at the stern seemed to have blessedness inscribed upon him. More than a hundred spirits sat within intu Israel day agyptu with what is written after that psalm of all of the spirits sang as with one voice. Then over them he made the holy cross a sign. They flung themselves down on the shore and he moved off as he had come swiftly.
The crowd that he had left belonged the beach seemed not to know the place. They looked about like those whose eyes try out things new to them. Upon all sides the sunshot forth the day, and from midheaven its incisive arrows already had chased Capricorn away, when those who just arrived lifted their heads toward us and said, "Do show us, if you know, the way by which we can ascend the slope." And Virgil answered, "You may be convinced that we're quite familiar with this shore, but we're strangers here just as you are. We came but now a little while before you, though by another path so difficult and dense that this ascent seems sport to us." The souls who, noticing my breathing, sensed that I was still a living being, then out of astonishment turned pale. And just as people crowd around a messenger who bears an olive branch to hear his news, and no one hesitates to
169:22join that crush. So here those happy spirits, all of them stir hard at my face, just as if they had forgotten to proceed to their perfection. I saw one of those spirits moving forward in order to embrace me. His affection so great that I was moved to mime his welcome.
Hey, stop. Okay. All right. So again, this is mirroring hell. Remember, remember how um when Virgil took uh Dante into hell, they have to cross the river Aaron, right?
And there's all these souls lining up to cross the river. And the same thing is happening here where there's souls lining up to cross the river into antip purgatory, uh the area before the mountain. Can you explain to me or just list for me the differences between these two groups? The first group in hell, second group improvatory. What are the differences you notice?
It's pretty stark actually the these differences. What are they doing here that souls didn't do in hell?
Looking around for new.
This is very important. Okay, you understand? They're curious. Okay, remember and like it's very explicit uh the line right um their eyes try look line look at line 54 whose eyes try things new to them they're curious they want to learn okay it's pretty stark that's one they're curious what's the other thing Yes.
Uh asking about the place
they ask, they talk, man. Think about it. How in how in uh in hell the souls just didn't talk, right? They talk. They asked questions.
Yes.
171:22I feel like in spirit they feel a lot more optimistic.
Yeah. Yeah. They're active, right? Whereas uh in infernal they were passive. They were just indifferent.
Nothing could move them. Uh yes. 73. So here those happy spirits, all of them stare hard at my face. So it's like they're really happy.
Like people in hell just not very happy.
That's right. They're happy. They're optimistic. Exactly. Yes.
And also what are they doing that that never happens in hell? They're embracing each other. They're touching each other. Uh what else? What what are they doing here?
That never happens in hell but happens a lot in heaven seeing right look look at line 46 right 46 to 48 those spirits sang with one voice okay so this is a pretty strict economy right that the souls in hell were passive indifferent they just accept their fate whereas here the souls are curious ious. They want to learn. So, so what's this really saying about who's in hell and who and who's in purgatory who who goes to hell, who goes to purgatory? I guess hell is a place of inactivity or being very passive and no curiosity, no consciousness, no wanting to learn or improve, no agency. And then purgatory is like we sin a little bit, but we're still happy.
We still want to try to get better. We are just people at fault, but we we are still trying.
Exactly. Yes.
Just similar to that that they have an optimistic mindset, a growth mindset.
It's attitude, right? It's they choose. It's like um do you guys know Cara Dwight? Right. Carol Carol Dwight.
Dwight. Yeah, you
173:23probably know her. Um but you know she's a Stanford psychologist and she says that in life there are those who succeed and those who fail and the main difference is in attitude right those who succeed have a growth mindset which is say they're always looking to get better okay they accept adversity they accept failure as opportunities to improve themselves whereas fixed people fixed mindset don't believe they can ever improve and they just accept things as they are afraid a failure. Okay. And that's the difference between uh hell and purgatory. Okay.
So this is radical because Kano shows us it's not necessarily what you do that condemns you to hell or purgatory. It's what your attitude is, what you believe, what you choose to do that's important. Okay? Your mindset that's important. Okay?
Does that make sense? All right. Uh let's let's keep on reading.
Line 79. Oh shades in all except appearance empty. Three times I clasped my hands behind him and often brought them back against my chest. Dismay I think was painted on my face at this that shadow smiled as he withdrew and I still seeking him again advanced. Gently he said that I could now stand back.
Then I knew who he was and I beseeched him to remain a while and talk with me. He answered, "As I loved you when I was within my mortal flesh, so freed I love you, therefore I stay." But you, why do you journey? My own Cassella to return again to where I am, I journey thus. But why, I said, were you deprived of so much time? And he no injury is done to me if he whose takes up whom and when he pleases has kept me from this crossing many times.
For his own will derives from a just will and yet for three months now he has accepted more most
175:24tranquily all those who would embark. Therefore I who had turned then to the shore at which the tyers water makes the salt was gathered in by his benevolence. Straight to that river mouth he set his wings. that always is the place of gathering for those who do not sink to Aaron. And I, if there's no new law that denies you memory or practice of the songs of love that used to quiet all my longings, then may it please you with those songs to solace my soul somewhat.
For having journey to hear together with my body, it is weary. Love that discourses to me in my mind. He then began to sing and sang so sweetly that I still hear that sweetness sound in me. My master, I and all that company around the singer seemed so satisfied, as if no other thing might touch touch my our minds. We all were motionless and fixed upon the notes, when all at once the grave old man cried out, "What have we here, you lagarded spirits?
What negligence? What lingering is this?" Quick to the mountain to cast off the slow that will not let you see God show himself.
Okay, so um Dante sees an old friend from Florence. Uh this friend has died. Um, and they're very happy to see each other. Okay, this is a contrast between when uh Virgil and Ko saw each other. Okay, they they reminisce.
They they talk about uh their past. Um and then Ko sees him and says like like get out of here. Stop lingering, right? Move on. Okay.
Um so uh there's a contrast here. And again, Tonic does this a lot. Okay, keep on going. E line 124. Even as doves assembled where they feed, quietly gathering their grain or weeds, forgetful of their customary strut, will if something appears that makes them fear, immediately leave their food behind because they're assailed by greater care.
So did I see that new come company. They left the song behind,
177:25turned toward the slope like those who go and yet do not know where. And we were no less hasty in departure.
Let's continue. Okay. Count to three. But while their sudden flight was scattering those souls across the plane toward the mountain where were wrecked by rightful punishments, I drew in closer to my true companion, for how could I have run ahead without him? Who could have helped me as I climbed the mountain?
He seemed like one who stung by self-reproof. Oh pure and noble conscience, you in whom each petty fault becomes a harsh rebuke. And when his feet had left off hurrying, for haste denies all acts their dignity, my mind, which was before too focused, were more curious and widened its attention. I set my vision toward the slope that rises most deeply up to heaven from the sea. Behind my back the sun was flaming red, but there ahead of me its light was shattered because its rays were resting on my body.
And when I saw the ground was dark in front of me and me alone, afraid that I had been abandoned, I turned to my side. And he, my only comfort, as he turned around began, why must you still mistrust? Don't you believe that I am with and guide you? The body from within which I cast shadows is buried where it now is evening, take taken from Bundesi. It now belongs to Naple.
Thus, if no shadow falls in front of me, do not be more amazed than when you see the heavens not impede each other's rays. The power has exposed such bodyless bodies to suffer torment, heat and cold. How this is done, he would not have us know. Foolish is he who hopes our intellect can reach the end of that unending road. Only one substance in three persons follows.
Confine yourself, oh humans, to the qua. Had you been able to see all, there would have been no need for Mary to give birth.
179:25Okay. Stop. Okay. All right. So, this is actually a very important part of um this poem.
So, so I want to analyze it uh in depth. Okay. First of all, explain to me what the relationship now is between Virgil and Dante. How would you describe the relationship?
Yes. like Dante's a little bit like a teenager. So Virgils has given birth to him and now he's looking at he still really trusts him and likes him, but he sees that he doesn't have a shadow. And that's one of the ways that you know you can climb the mountain because you're walking towards your shadow trying to deal with your sin.
And so he's thinking, how much of a guide is he really going to be if he's clearly not from here and he's not an expert of this place? Um, okay. Um, that's one way to interpret it, but I I I kind of disagree with that. Okay. I I I like, um, how does Donnie feel about Virgil when So, so again, the idea is that Don has a body, so he's able to see his own shadow.
Virgil doesn't have a body, and uh, you can't see a shadow. This is not a problem in hell because there are no shadows in hell. This is a problem here in purgatory, right? Why is Dante upset about not seeing Virgil Shadow?
Yes.
Dante maybe upset that he can feel that he's getting close to overtaking Virgil, outgrowing him.
No. No. Uh, yes. Um, Dante's very insecure and he felt that he's abandoned by Virgil.
I think so. I think it's not I think it's insecurity, right? It's it's like like he needs Virgil constantly beside
181:25him. He can't see the shadow. He's nervous. Like, where's Virgil? And Virgil like don't worry.
I'm still with you. I'm going to guide you. Relax, man. Okay, that's exactly what what they're saying here. Okay, does that make sense?
So it shows you how dependent Dante has become on Virgil. It is Dante. It is Virgil who lifted Dante out of hell and now Dant is now dependent on Virgil to lift him up to purgatory. Okay. And again this is a pilgrimage.
This is a journey where Donnie has to learn to become independent. Um okay. Now a really important ters. Okay. I I want you to focus on this terset.
um is no 30 34 to 39. Okay, I want to focus on this. This is like really important. Um foolish is he who hopes or intellect can reach the end of that unending road. Only one substance in three persons follows.
What is this referring to? Trinity. But what is the one substance?
The monad.
Excuse me. the Monad.
Uh, no. The substance. What's the substance? Love, right? Who said um, the Trinity is three persons and they all have the same substance?
Who said that? Dante. When Peter was asking him, "What is faith? Do you believe in the Holy Trinity?" He's like, "I do. I believe that they that the trinity exists.
They all come from the same essence, which is love." Okay. So this is what Dante will say in heaven. Confine yourselves, oh humans, to acquire. Have you not been receive all? There would be have been no need for Mary to give birth.
Okay. Have been no need for Mary to give
183:25birth. What? What Virgil is saying is um what no need for Mary to give birth. What should what should he what what could he say? What could he say instead of this or you know something much more appropriate to Christian theology?
If we knew better then the there would be no need for what to happen for Jesus to come, right? Why is it there would be no need for Mary to give birth? Who who says this? Who says this?
Dante.
Dante as well. Okay. Well, no actually not Dante. Bernard says this in paradise, right? It is Mary giving birth.
That is the true miracle, not Jesus sacrificing himself. This is all coming from the mouth of Virgil. Do you understand? And these ideas will be presented to us in paradise. What's the paradox here?
Yes.
Where did he get to know these if what he said in paradise was something that he's supposed to learn from his journey?
Yeah. Like this is really confusing for us because we just said Virgil is in limbo and Virgil could possibly be the master of hell. This is our speculation. We don't have evidence this is the case. How is it supposed been to paradise?
How is he able to know this stuff? Right? We'll discover this stuff in paradise, but we are in purgatory right now. And Virgil has spent all eternity in limbo. Where's he getting this stuff from?
This is these are things that Donn will discover once in heaven. But already
185:25Virgil understands this stuff. How can we explain this paradox? Yeah, I just guess maybe Jesus got two two side. One side is uh Jesus and other side is is Lucifer. How about is it possible?
Okay. So, you're saying that Virgil is both Lucifer and Jesus?
That's that's interesting. Yes. Maybe when he's saying foolish is he, he's talking about himself in the past tense. That um when he got brought out of inferno, if he was there, that process gave him the knowledge that ascension requires faith in true love. Um but he would didn't need to be told that.
He just because But no, I'm trying to figure out how he knows this stuff, right? He I I'm I'm trying to figure out how he knows two things that are revealed to us in heaven. The first is that the Holy Trinity is has one essence which is love. So God is love basically, right? Second thing is like he knows that Mary is the one who redeemed us, not Jesus.
He knows this. So I'm saying how how could he know this?
He was there.
He went there.
He went there. He was there.
He went there. And how did he end up in in limbo? Like you said, he chose us not to be there. He was like, "Oh, this place is great, but I have to be like a servant to God. I don't want to do that, so I just come back."
He could have gone there because he's explicit, right? You cannot leave hell unless Well, you you can't go to heaven unless you're a Christian, right?
Uh yes.
Um did Beatatric tell him when she assigned him the task?
Why would Beatric tell him this stuff?
Fine. I I'm like, yes,
187:25Dante guesses it and ascribes it to Virgil. No, no, no, no. Virgil's a teacher. Virgil's a father. Dante is a student and a son, right?
So, Dante would never be as presumptuous as to teach this to Virgil. And Dante does not know this yet, right? He only knows this when he goes up to heaven. So, how can Virgil know this? Well, technically Lucifer was really close to God.
Right. Keep on going.
Right. So if and therefore he understands the essence, the substance, the three persons and therefore I don't know a fragment of Lucifer is with Virgil.
Okay, that's a good start. Okay, that's very close. Keep on going. Keep on going on that logic. Yes.
For the devil to distort the truth means that he knows the truth very well in its fabrics to be able to tear it apart, deconstruct it, cancel it.
Yes.
So then he probably revealed that to Virgil like this is the essence, but we were like try to divert.
Well, no, no, no, no. Okay. The first part was right. The second part is like
you're assuming Lucifer talked to Virgil, right? True, but he can't talk. But Virgil can't Lucer can't talk. So how does Virgil know this?
Yes.
It's the opposite of what happens of what he sees of Lucifer in hell. So it's like three sinners are digested into one substance which is evil and that the oppos it's the opposite of the immaculate conception. Okay. So that's an interesting theory. Okay.
And that explains the trinity. It doesn't explain Mary. Okay. Who is Virgil? What does he do?
He's a poet. And who are poets?
189:27They're channeling God, right? You understand? This is how Dante is able to write this. He's channeling God. He actually doesn't D probably doesn't even know what he's writing.
Okay. We probably we're probably better at analyzing this poetry than Dante. I mean like I'm not exaggerating. Donnie is just is just like singing the truth of the universe. He doesn't really know what he's singing.
And that's what a poet is. A poet is a vessel for the divine fire. Okay. So if Virgil knows this truth, but he wrote the Iniad, what is it saying about Virgil? Do you mean
that Virgil Virgil is a is more or less a Lucifer figure?
But why is he Lucifer?
Because he knows the truth. But truth to know, to tell the truth.
No, no, no. Yes.
Well, I mean, in a way he was forced by Augustus to like speak poetry, but like um use it for a empire way.
So, so in God's eyes, what did you do?
Well, he you betrayed God because
you betrayed God. You understand? The great betrayer is Virgil, not Lucifer. Okay, just think about this. Does that make sense, guys?
Because God gave you the greatest gift possible, which is poetry, which is divine and truth. And you distorted it in order to serve empire. That's the great betrayal, right? Who's Lucifer? Lucifer is someone who uh betrayed God in order to seek power.
Uh yes.
Then why is Virgil in me?
That's a really good question. Yes. Is it because he left an Easter egg that when Anias is about to kill Turnis, he
191:28debates it a lot and then he sees Palace's sword belt on Turnis and that's what makes him finally kill him. But that's we don't know whether that's fully true or not, but at least it's maybe Virgil saying that there was another thing which made me make Anas kill Turnis in the Anid. it wasn't just the whole message that it seemed kind of like a red herring that it was Palace's sword belt that made him kill Tis when it was his divine destiny to do so anyway.
Okay, that's a good point. Okay, so like try to visualize what's happening. Okay, God gave Virgil the divine fire. Okay, just as he's he gave uh Dante the divine fire just as he gave Shakespeare the divine fire. Okay, this is all divine fire.
This is not yours. This is God's. Okay, and then Augustus says, "Okay, you know what? give me that divine fire and we'll craft a weapon together. Well, if you do that, if you put the divine light into the weapon, someone's going to leak out.
Does that make sense? And that's why there's so many inconsistencies in the iniad, including the one of where in shows mercy or what show mercy the turn is and then in the end decides to come anyway. Okay? So, there are a lot of inconsistencies in the iniad because you're trying to weaponize divine fire and divine fire does not want to be weaponized. Okay?
It's meant to uh like enlighten the world. It's not meant to be directed as a weapon of empire. All right. But um do do you guys do you guys understand this this this idea that Virgil is the great betrayer because God gave him divine fire and rather than enlightening the world like what Donnie is doing with divine comedy, he she he chooses to corrupt it in a way that serves empire for his own personal benefit. And this is a great betrayal of humanity.
Right? Imagine if Jesus came and he's like screw this mission. I'm going to side with the Romans. Yeah.
193:28Right. Yeah. Because like I don't be crucified and the Romans are are going to give me a trillion dollar. Screw screw this mission, right? Isn't that a great betrayal of God?
It's also a betrayal of humanity. Yes.
Yeah. And that's exactly what the Jews hated Jesus for because they really wanted a real messiah who was a militant leader just like Julius Caesar. They really wanted Jesus to side well not side with the Romans or fight against the Romans. That's why they denied him the title of Messiah.
That's right. Exactly. Because Jesus was a prophet of peace and they wanted a prophet of war. Yes. Okay.
Does that make sense? So, so again when we speculating but like again it's a huge problem for us how these two ideas where God is love and Mary is what redeemed us. These are the two main ideas of paradise. How are they appearing in the mouth of Virgil right? And the answer is well because he had access to divine fire but he chose to corrupt it but it doesn't answer the question is like how did Virgil end up in limbo?
I think as a poet it's where he can be the most creative because heaven is kind of a place you can't touch or manipulate whereas in hell he can create his own story and also put who he wants in it.
Yes.
And like as we see hell is basically created by Virgil and he knows the place because he created it.
Exactly. Okay. So one explanation is that Virgil created hell and Donna created heaven. Okay. So ultimately what's happening is a war between heaven and hell.
the a hell conceptualized by Virgil and a and a heaven conceptualized by Dante. That's one possibility. Yes. Uh yes.
Yeah. So that's like a theory I had about hell is that Dante is basically entering um Virgil's mind.
But he does enter Virgil's mind. How? How?
Oh yeah, that's that's the point I don't understand.
Okay. But how does he enter Virgil's mind?
By going into hell or
195:29No. No. No. How does he enter Virgil's mind? In fact, he becomes Virgil's mind because what did he do?
He read the Iniad.
He read the Iniad, right? That's what the Iniad is. It's a mind of Virgil. It is hell. Do you understand?
It's a blueprint for hell. Imagine a world in which love is a disease, right? And you can just kill any woman that you want. Okay? Imagine a world without mercy, about forgiveness, right?
Your enemy, you must kill. You can never show mercy to your enemy. That is hell. No forgiveness, no mercy, no love, just pure obedience. That's what hell is.
Okay. So the iniad is the expression of hell and divine comedy is expression of heaven. But is it possible to read the vine comedy without reading the iniad? Is it possible? It's not possible because you don't understand what's going on.
Okay? You understand? There are lots of characters here and only by reading the Iniad can you truly appreciate Divine Comedy. So, heaven and hell need each other. Okay?
They're at war with each other, but they also they also need each other. They're complimentary of each other. Okay? So, that that's the other idea here. Okay?
But that still doesn't answer the So, one possibility is okay, well, Virgil created hell and Donna created heaven. Okay, but how can we explain another how can we further explain why Virgil is in limbo and not being punished for betraying God? I'm not sure if we already answered this in the last question, but could it just be that Dante feels that he couldn't be Dante without Virgil?
Right. So,
197:29so he appreciates Virgil's contribution.
So, so that's that's a possibility, right? Dante knows he cannot be done without Virgil because and he says this like he grew up being nourished and nourished by the Iniad, right? But why would that lead to Virgil in limbo? Okay. Yes.
Virgil is still using imagination, truth, beauty, and poetry. So, it's still God's gift. So, because he's using that, he's not going to be punished. Still a creator.
No, no, no, no. That's even worse, right? That that that's even worse. I mean, if you don't know anything and you you behave like and and you behave like Virgil does, that's one thing. But like to know that you're behaving the wrong way and you still choose to do it, that's that's, you know, that's um that's even worse.
Okay. All right. So, let's think about this. In the universe of Dante, um where should Virgil be? Excuse me.
In the inferno.
Which part of the inferno?
The very bottom in one of the mouths of Satan.
Yeah.
Right. He's the great betrayer. Much worse than Satan. He is the great betrayer. And who's there instead?
Cas
and Buddhas. Right.
Yeah.
So, what do you think happened? Again, we're only speculating. Okay. Want to use our imagination. We're trying to figure out how this system works, right?
Because in Dante's framework, Virgil, the place where he belongs is in the mouth of Lucifer being chewed to death because his betrayal is the same as Lucifer's betrayal. Lucifer betrayed God and Virgil betrayed humanity, right? It's the INIAD that has condemned Europe to a thousand years of hell. Just
199:30endless war, endless suffering. Okay. No mercy, no love. Yes.
The Divine Comedy Inferno is not Dante's framework, but Virgil's framework.
Right. Right. Right. Right. So, so that's one possibility, but I'm saying like let's another possibility, right?
Let's just say like Virgil is master of hell. can he construct hell in any way he wants and there's nothing that anyone can do about it even God. What's another possibility? Okay. And the other possibility is okay.
Let's go with Donny's framework. And in Donny's framework, um Virgil is in the bottom of hell being chewed and tortured by Lucifer. How would he have gotten out of that situation? Uh yes,
only through Dante himself. Like Dante himself puts Virgil into limbo because he loves him so much maybe or he forgives him.
Okay. Right. Uh yes,
he got temporarily moved out by Beatatrice and the other ladies from heaven just for this purpose, but he really doesn't want Dante to know that's the truth. So he
possibility. Do you guys understand that? You understand that? Because Beatric has a problem, right? Beatric is like Dante's lost in the woods.
Someone has to help him. And who's the only guy possible? Virgil. Problem is Virgil is in hell being chewed alive because of his betrayal of humanity. But where?
But in the world, okay, who does Dante admire the most? Who could guide Dante out of hell? Only Virgil, right? Because only Virgil knows hell that much because he's at the very bottom. So he understands the very essence of hell.
So they might have made a deal, right? Where and this all speculation, okay? But you can see how this might work where Beatric says to Virgil, "Okay, we'll give you a special reprieve. You help Dante and then Dante
201:33and and then we'll we'll you know uh move your limbo and then we'll put in British and castes in your in your place." Does that make sense? Metaphorically, it makes sense because Dante probably wouldn't have written the comedy without Virgil's influence.
Exactly. Exactly. Right. So, um, tomorrow, uh, we talked to, um, David Brahmich and David Brahmich had mentor was Herold Bloom, right? And her Bloom wrote a wrote a very famous book called anxiety of influence.
And in the the very idea of anxiety of influence is how is how does creation happen? How is it possible for people like Milton and Ke and Shakespeare to create great arts of work uh create create great uh artwork? And the answer is anxiety of influence where as a young poet you are so burdened by a higher poet right so Milton was burdened by Shakespeare and you think that oh it's impossible for me to surpass him and you try your very best to imitate him you try you you try your very best to become him but in this process um of trying to become him you recognize the problems in this and then you develop your own creativity. Does that make sense? You can't do it in a vacuum.
You can't do it in a blank slate. You have to fully embrace someone and then defeat that person, right? It it is very similar to the fatherson dynamic, right? Where you first become a father, then you kill the father, then you become yourself. Don't kill the father.
Okay? Don't kill your father, but like you know, you leave your father behind. This is what's happening right now. uh literally between Virgil and Dante. Okay, Dante has become Virgil's son and he's trying to become Virgil, but in the process he will discover the pro the limitations of um Virgil and become his own poet.
Okay, does that make sense? And it's very similar to the way I teach
203:34where you know in the first few days I was trying to give you a lot of ideas but over time um as you have your as you have this framework that I I given you this framework allows you to better analyze the divine comedy and over time if you keep on doing this you'll discover I can build my own framework I don't need this for framework anymore but you first need that framework okay does that make sense all Right? Does that answer answer your question? Okay. All right. And again, we're only speculating.
Okay. We're only using our imagination. But you can see how this does explain a lot about what's going on, right? And again, what's really confusing right now is these two great truths of paradise. Um, Virgil already knows.
It also shows you the consistency, the totality of Divine Comedy, right? where all three inferno, purgatory, and paradise all line up perfectly. And I don't know how you could do that as a human being. And this is an age before computers. This is an age even before like pen and paper, right?
But he's able to do this in his mind. And if you're like, well, it's all him being deliberate and being very careful. Well, that doesn't really get you anywhere. But if you're like, okay, all he's doing is channeling the divine fire. Well, that explains a lot more.
Okay. Okay. Does that make sense, guys? All right. All right.
Uh, let's keep on reading.
Line 40. You saw the fruitless longing of those men who would, if reason, could have been content, those whose desire eternally laments. I speak of Aristotle and of Plato and many others. Here he bent his head and said no more, remaining with his sorrow. By this time we had reached the mountains base, discovering a wall of rock so sheer that even agile legs are useless there.
The loneliest, most jagged promonter that lies between Turbia and Larichi compared with it could provide stairs wide and easy. Now who knows where along this mountain side? My master Halang asked,
205:35one finds arise where even he who has no wings can climb.
Wait, stop. Okay. All right. Um, so he says, you saw the fruitless longing of those men who would, if reason could have been content, those who desire eternally laments. I speak of Aristotle, Plato and many others.
What does he mean by this? What does he mean by this? Yes. That because they didn't know about the Trinity and those special truths of heaven, they even though they had great souls and pure souls, they were just eternally desiring to understand the Mona but hadn't been given the special the two special truths well of the immaculate conception and trinity. So even though they probably should have made it, they're the ones the most upset that they had.
Yeah, that's close. Okay, but I I would phrase it differently. Does anyone else want to try? Yeah, you can try again. just that they still have a distance between them and the world of the forms.
What if you think that's where God resides?
Sure. Sure. But we're trying to figure out what causes this distance. Okay. What causes this separation?
They didn't reason and knowledge.
They didn't think they needed faith.
I It's faith, right? Because explain to me because only with faith do you understand that it's miracle redeemed us, not Jesus. It's only with faith that you understand that God is love. Okay? You can't prove it.
You can't reason it out. Plato and Aristotle their problem was that they wanted to reason out. You can't do that. You you have to have faith and from this faith comes your imagination which then allows you to access the the truth. Do you understand the logic?
And again, it's amazing because this is what because this is what Donnie will tell us will reveal to us in paradise. You need to you need to live a life of faith, hope, and love. And Virgil is already saying this. So Virgil
207:36knows this but he refuses to act it out. Okay. He refuses to align uh will with action. Okay. All right.
Let's keep on reading.
While he his eyes upon the ground consulted his mind considering what road to take. And I looked up around the wall of rock. Along the left a band of souls appeared to me to be approaching us. But so unheardly their movements did not show. Lift up your eyes, I told my master, "Here are those who can advise us how to go if you can find no counsel in yourself." At this he looked at them and less distressed, replied, "Let us go there.
Their steps are slow, and you, my gentle son, hold fast to hope." The distance from that company to us, I mean, when we had gone a thousand paces was still as far as the fine hurler's toss. when they all huddled toward the hard rock wall and once they had crowded there refused to budge even as men when apprehensive halt "Oh chosen souls you have ended well." Virgil began by virtue of that peace which I believe awaits you all. Please tell us where the slope inclines and can be climbed. For he who best discerns the worth of time is most distressed whenever time is lost. Even as sheep that move, first one, then two, then three out of the fold, the others also stand, eyes and muzzles lowered timidly.
And what the first sheep does, the others do, and if it halts, they huddle close behind, simple and quiet, and not knowing why. So then I saw those spirits in the front of that flock flavored, favored by good fortune move. Their looks were modest, seemly, slow, their walk. As soon as these souls saw upon my right along the ground a gap in the sun's light where shadows stretched from me to the rock wall, they stopped and then drew back somewhat. And all who came behind them, though they they did not know why those ahead had halted, also slowed.
209:37Without your asking, I shall tell you plainly that you're looking at a human body. That's why the sunlight on the ground is broken. Don't be astonished. rest assured that he would not attempt to cross this wall without a force that have incentive and support. These were my master's words that worthy band replied, "Come back and move in our direction." And gestured with backhanded motions, right?
And one of them began, "Whoever you may be, as you move forward, turn and see. Consider if beyond you've ever seen me." I turned to look at him attentively. He was fairhired and handsome, and his aspect was noble. But one eyebrow had been clefted by a swordstroke. When I had humbly noted that I had never seen him, he said, "Look now," showing me a wound high on his chest.
Then, as he smiled, he told he told me, "I'm Manfred, the grandson of the Empress Constance. Thus, I pray that when you reach the world again, you may go to my lovely daughter, mother of kings of Sicily and Aragon. Tell her the truth, lest she's heard something other." After my body had been shattered by two fatal blows and tears, I then consigned myself to him who willingly forgives. My sins were ghastly, but the infinite goodness has armed so wide that it accepts whoever would return, imploring it. As if Cazenza's bastard, who was sent to hunt me down, alive or dead by Clement, had understood this facet of God's mercy, my body's bones would still be there beneath the custody of the great heap of stones near Benavvento at the bridge head.
Now rain bathes my bones. The wind has driven them beyond the kingdom near the verd's banks where he transported them with tapers bent. Despite the church's curse, there's no one so lost that the eternal love cannot return as long as hope shows something green. But it is true that anyone who dies in contacency of the holy church, though he repented at the end, must wait along the shore for 30
211:37times the span he spent in his presumptuousness. Unless that edict is abridged through fitting prayers. Now see if you by making known to my kind constants where you saw my soul and wide delays decreed for me can make me happy. Those here through those beyond advance more quickly.
Okay. So um they are moving towards purgatory. They are anti purgatory. Right? So they not yet enter the gates of purgatory and they're meeting different souls and one of them is Manfred.
Now Manfred um is a royal. He is a king. He's a grandson of the emperor's constants and uh he died in battle and he was excommunic ex communicated by the church. Why is this a paradox? He was excommunicated by the church.
Why is this a paradox
is here?
Yeah, it's straight go. It's like go straight to hell card, right? You're excommunicated. It means that you have been banished from the community of Christians. Doesn't matter if you're baptized, doesn't matter what you believe, doesn't matter what you do.
You have now been banished from the community of Christianity. And therefore, you must now burn in hell. Um, and what does Manfred say? How can we understand this this? Yes.
He said as I was dying basically in tears, I suddenly was like, "God, please forgive me." And then I know my sins were terrible, but God, you know, spread his arms to me to to return. Um, yeah.
So God is all forgiving. Okay, you have a direct connection to God. And okay, if you get ex excuited by the church, that's bad. But but that just means you spend more time in purgatory. Okay.
Right. So again, this is revolutionary for this time in history where the ex exccommunication doesn't really matter that much. Okay? What matters is your faith in God. Um, how is it possible to reduce your time
213:38in purgatory? Do you guys know? Yes.
Someone who's alive prays for you.
Exactly. Okay. Right. This goes back to the idea in heaven where um if an infant dies, but the parents are very virtuous and pray for the infant. The infant is given access to heaven.
Yes.
I think it also matters whether the prayer is like a good prayer or just like an off-handed prayer. I think there's like a difference between
yeah no no no commitment right you know if someone's praying for you um eight hours a day and also the number of people also matter as well like if entire community is praying for you that will reduce your time in in purgatory okay right okay all right so let's keep on going Kanto four. When any of our faculties retains a strong impression of delight or pain, the soul will wholly concentrate on that, neglecting any other power it has. And this refutes the error that maintains that one above the other, several souls can flame in us. And thus, when something seen or heard secures the soul in stringent grip, time moves, and yet we do not notice it. The power that perceives the course of time is not the power that captures all the mind.
The former has no force, the latter binds. And I confirmed this by experience, hearing that spirit and my wonderment. For though the sun had fully climbed 50°, I had not noticed it. And when we came to the point at which in unison those souls cried out to us, "Here's what you want."
Okay. So at this this answers your question of time, right? You have a question about time. What does Dante say? Right.
So, but what does he mean? Right. We had a question about time, right? So, what does Donnie say about time?
215:44Yes.
The sun has climbed 50°.
Yeah. And that's physical time. But what could could you um Yeah. What what's he saying here?
Um well uh verse 10. The power that perceives the course of time is not the power that captures all the mind. The former has no forth. The latter binds. So um it's not your perception.
It's your imagination.
It's not the perception that matters. What matters? The perception of time doesn't matter. What matters?
The emotions. Right. Right? So the power that cap perceives the course of time is not the power that captures all the mind. Okay?
The power that perceives the course of time has no force. The power that captures all the mind which is the emotions that binds. Okay.
All right. So what matters is the emotional time as as opposed to the physical time. Okay. Keep on going. Line 13.
And I confirmed this by experience, hearing that spirit in my wonderment. For though the sun had fully climbed 50 degrees, I had not noticed it. When we came to the point at which in unison, those soul cried out to us, "Here's what you want." And then verse 19, "The farmer, when the grape is darkening, will often stuff a wider opening with just a little forkful of his thorns." Then was the gap through which my guide and I which followed after climbed with two alone after the company of souls had gone.
Why does he notice the passing of time? Why does he notice the passing of time?
Yes,
the changing of the sun's degrees.
Well, well, that would tell him the time, but he doesn't even notice that. I'm saying why doesn't he notice the sun, the time, the passing of time? And like this is just like like why
217:46don't you notice time? Does your perceiving change?
Uh, yes.
Um,
why would you not notice time?
Not notice time?
Yeah. What would you not notice time
if nothing changes in?
You know what I'm saying? Like like when do you not notice time? Yes.
You're sleeping
that you lost your
Yeah. When you're happy. Okay.
When you're happy. And why sounding very happy? Why you sounding happy? What?
He's on his way to Beatatrice.
No, there's a better reason.
He hasn't mentioned Beatatric yet. He's out of hell, right?
Oh,
okay. He He was in hell and now he's finally out of hell. His son, there's people who are happy. He's just He's just really happy right now. Okay.
All right. Uh let's keep on going.
Verse 25. Then Leo can be climbed. One can descend to Noli and ascend Kakume and Bispantova with feet alone. But here I had to fly. I mean with rapid wings and pinions of immense desire behind the guide who gave me hope and with my light.
We made our upward way through rifted rock along each side the edges pressed on us. The ground beneath required feet and hands. When we had reached the upper rim of that steep bank, emerging on the open slope, I said, "My master, what way shall we take?" And he to me, "Don't squander any steps. Keep climbing up the mountain after me until we find some expert company. The summit was so high my sight fell short.
The slope was far more steep than the line drawn from middle quadrant to the center point. I was exhausted when I made this plea. Oh gentle father, turn around and see. I will not left alone. I will be left alone alone unless you halt.
My son, he said, draw yourself up to there while pointing to a somewhat higher terrace which circles all the slope along that side. His words incited me. My body tried. On hands and knees, I
219:47scrambled after him until the terrace lay beneath my feet. There we sat down together, facing east in the direction from which we had come. What joy to look back at a path we've climbed. My eyes were first set on the short below, and then I raised them toward the sun. I was amazed to find it fall upon our left.
And when the poet saw that I was struck with wonder as I watched the chariot of light passing between the north and us, he said to me, "Suppose Caster and Pix were in conjunction with that mirror there, which takes the light and guides it north and south. Then you would see the reddish zodiac still closer to the bears as it revolved, unless it has abandoned it track." If you would realize how that should be, then concentrate imagining this mountain so placed upon this earth that both mount Zion and it although in different hemispheres share one horizon. Therefore, you can see putting your mind to it attentively.
Where is Mount Zion? You guys know where's Mount Zion? I'll be in Mount Zion. Come on, guys. In Israel,
Egypt. Jerusalem, right? Zionist. Come on, man. Zionist, right?
Mount Zion. So, what what what he's saying is that purgatory and Jerusalem are opposite of each other. Does that make sense? Okay. So, um yeah.
Uh yeah. What is relationship between Dante and Virgil? How would you describe the relationship? Suie. No.
Yes.
Well, still a father-son relationship.
Yes. Can you explain why?
Well, like further up, he he said Virgil said uh son to Dante and Dante said father to Virgil.
Okay. So, and they and he Dante still
221:49trusts Virgil that he knows the way up.
So, let's imagine you're a father, okay? Right. And you take your son who's like 10 on a hike to a mountain, right? What's your son doing all the time?
Are we there yet?
Yeah. Are we there yet? Okay. And what's doing like are we there yet? Okay.
And and and the father's like, "Oh, like you know, just focus on the mountain top." Okay. So, so it's very much a a father-son relationship. And it's almost like Dante has regress, right? because he's acting a lot more im immaturely than before, right? Before it was one of respect, uh, one of awe at Virgil.
Now it's just like, are we there yet, man? This is so exhausting. And V is like, come on, man. Move it. Okay.
All right. Let's keep on going.
Um, line 71. Line 71. Therefore you can see putting your mind to it attentively how that same path which Fan drove so poorly must pass this mountain on the north whereas it skirts Mount Zion on the southern side. I said, "My master, surely surely I have never since my intelligence seemed lacking, seen as clearly as I now can comprehend that the midcircle of the heavens motion, one of the sciences call it equator, which always lies between the sun and winter, as you explained, lies as far north of here, as it lies southward of the sight from which the Hebrews looking toward the tropics saw it. But if it pleased you, I should willingly learn just how far it is we still must journey.
The slope climbs higher than my eyes can follow." and he to me this mountains of such sort that climbing it is hardest at the start but as we rise the slope grows less unkind. Therefore when this slope seems to you so gentle then climbing farther up will be as restful as traveling downstream by boat. You'll be where this pathway ends and there you can expect to put your weariness to rest. I say no more and this I know is true.
Okay, so again Donis is bitching throughout this, right? He's like, "Are we there yet? I'm so exhausted. Can we
223:49just rest?" And then Virgil's like, "Come on, we're almost there." Um, why u, and I don't actually know the answer to this question. Why is Virgil uh and Donnie, why are they spending so much time on trying to geollocate where they are, right? Like they're they're very explicit about where they are. Like, okay, we have the we are the opposite end of Jerusalem. The stars are like this.
Why would why would um Bonnie spend so much time trying to geollocate Mount Purgatory? And I don't actually know the answer. Yes.
To like be more accurate while he's writing the poem because he's going to like teach all of these to the people.
Uh yes, you could know where heaven touches the earth. I.e. the peak of the mountain would be the closest place on earth to heaven. Yeah, I I understand that. But like purgatory is made up, right?
So, I'm trying to figure out why he's trying to be so exact and detailed about where Mount Purgatory is. Yes.
Well, you're hiking, right? So, um try to memorize all the signs and where things are so that you don't get lost.
Okay, I understand that. Um yes.
Is it just a metaphor for purgatory? Because purgatory is quite a meticulous place where you have to clean yourselves.
Right. Right. Right. But I'm I'm trying to figure this out. Okay.
I'm trying to figure out why he's spending so much time being so exact and detailed about where Mount Purgatory is, what it looks like, what where is in relation to other places. What why would he again? I don't actually know the answer. I'm just asking you this question. Uh yes,
maybe Dentine just uh did the trust distrust of Virgil. He say maybe Virgil try to treat him or
Well, it's Virgil is doing the talking. I guess
225:50maybe Virgil's trying to remember it for later. When his task with Dante is done, he gets shoved back to limbo/hell and he's trying just to remember for himself.
That's a very optimistic reading of Virgil actually. Yes.
The way to measure things. So because it's about progress, you can only progress in what you measure. So they're looking at where they are like to start with and then progress with it.
Yeah. Okay. Right. Good. Right.
So um maybe a possibility is like they're trying to give people a sense of time so like their progress can be tracked. Okay. That's one really strong possibility. Yes. And I I don't know the answer.
I'm just like what are possibilities here? Just use your use your imagination. Anyone else? Yes. Well, maybe just for the reader so you can imagine it as detailed as possible.
And and why would that why would that be important?
I find this to be a treasure map for imagination,
right? Because um back to your point about Dante starting ushering in Renaissance, if you look at Renaissance paintings, there are lots of perspectives.
Mh.
And um it's almost like if you want to imagine to the fullest, you need to give details. A lot of details.
Yes.
And this is like a treasure map to hey, this is how you do it.
Yes. And I guess that's why maybe a cultist and you know later people would find this enlightening because literally this is a map
to the ultimate treasures.
Yes. Yes. Okay.
Like a hiker you probably know the Japanese like commando kodo which is shy which is one of the pilgrimage roads by UNESCO saying that it's a pilgrimage. So you go through the mountains to you know
227:51purify your soul and all that. The other one is the one uh the route of San Diego the compostella which is another trip to um to pilgrimage through the mountains and stuff. And so maybe in his idea that like this idea of purgatory purging yourself as you hike or as you you know go on a journey itself physically metaphorically it's a way to purify yourself just like Muslims also go to you know the same.
Okay. So um I think that Carol's point is very interesting. So let's drop some paintings. Okay. Let's look at um medieval European art.
Okay. And then we're going to contrast that with Renaissance art and see if we can spot the difference. Actually, it's actually pretty blatant, but but we'll do it. Okay. Medieval art.
We'll we'll look at some images. Okay. Okay. So, this is medieval art, guys. Okay.
All right. Do you guys see that? Uh just put it put it in your mind. Now, we're going to do Renaissance art. And again, the difference is pretty stark.
What's the difference, guys?
Yes. Yes. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Yes. So, space and time really matter here. Yes.
Yeah. From from two-dimensional to three-dimensional.
Yes. Right. It's pretty obvious, right? They put a lot of focus on space and time on death perception. Right.
Before it was 2D, now it's 3D. Any anyone else?
It's a de it's a demonstration of imaginative power. uh this um to uh convey the force of divine imaginative power you you do have to have uh you know very very uh you know deep knowledge about geography but also imagination.
Yes. So let's do mathematics of renaissance art. Let's see what what what happens if we do that. Mathematics of Renaissance art.
229:59Yeah. So, they're using a lot of mathematics with Renaissance art, right? Um the um maybe the Last Supper. Okay. This is Divine Comedy.
Okay. Well, I mean this is Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But you guys see this?
Okay. There's there's a lot more mathematics in Renaissance art than there is in medieval art. In fact, there's really no mathematics in medieval art. But but if you look at but you look at Renaissance art, the geometry really matters. The symmetry really matters.
Dep perception really matters. Okay. And this started because of Dante. Dante is really concerned about mathematics. He's really trying he's really concerned about trying to create as much detail as possible in his poetry so that excites the imagination.
Okay. And it makes it Yes.
And also pretty much every Renaissance painting is like a historical moment in time. And the medieval paintings were just like bishops and like just portraits. But this is like really Yeah. This really ignites the imagination like you you can like imagine yourself sitting at the table or like
Right. Yeah. And and and why would it excite the imagination as opposed to uh medival art? Yes.
Because you're grounding it in something more naturalistic and you're able to see yourself more. And I think the reason he does it in purgatory is cuz you can kind of go on purgatory a little bit while you're alive in real life.
Exactly. Do you understand? Okay. Right. So you can actually imagine yourself taking a hike and looking at the stars and then that draws you back to the divine comedy and when you read divine comedy you can also pick you can also as you read this imagine yourself with Virgil and Dante climbing up mount preparatory that's a power of detail and
232:00precision again again guys this is really it's obvious to us now but this is re it's it's watching it's literally watching a movie yes
well I really feel like purgatory is really similar to just Earth in general, you know, like we have a sun, we have, you know, it's really like earthlike as as opposed to inferno,
right? And he's trying to make it as earthlike as possible, right? By by by m by geoloccating it and says like this is actually a real place
on on on on Earth, right? And so again, we're not transitioning from the medieval period to the Renaissance period. And this is what sparks it because of its h um humanistic qualities, right? Its willingness to draw you into the story, its realism. So that you feel that Mount Purgatory is a real place.
If it's a real place, then um it gives you hope, right? Because before you you believe that there's only hell and and heaven and now like no, there's a there's a purgatory place and it's a transition into heaven. So even if you screwed up, as long as you're willing to repent, you will go to purgatory and you'll be there for a million years. You'll be there for thousand thousand years. Who knows?
But hey, if your family really loves you, you know, it won't be as bad. Okay? So it's getting it's almost incentivizing you to live life to the fullest, to live a life of love, to show kindness, generosity, and mercy to others. Right? Okay.
And again, this is opposite of the iniat, right? way again. You're not supposed to show mercy to your enemies where you're not supposed to like fall in love. You're just you're just supposed to like obey the gods. Does that make sense, guys?
All right. All right. Let's keep going. 97. And when his words were done, another voice nearby was heard to say, "Perhaps you will have need to sit before you reach that point." Hearing that voice, both of us turned around and to the left we saw a massive boulder which neither he nor I before had noticed.
We made our way toward it and
234:01toward the people who lounged behind that boulder in the shade as men beset by a listlessness will rest and one of them who seemed to me exhausted were sitting with his arms around his knees. Between his knees he kept his head bent down. Oh my sweet lord, I said, look carefully at one who shows himself more languid than he would have been where laziness his sister. Then that shade turned toward us attentively, lifting his eyes but just above his thigh and said, "Climb then, if you're so vigorous, then I knew who he was." And the distress that still was quickening quickening my breath somewhat, did not prevent my going to him. And when I had reached him, scarcely lifting up his head, he said, "And have you fathomemed how the sun can drive his chariot on your left?" The slowness of his movements, his brief words, had stirred my lips a little toward a smile.
than I began. From this time on, Balacqua, I did I need not grieve for you. But tell me, why do you sit here? Do you expect a guide, or have you fallen into your old ways? And he, oh brother, what's the use of climbing?
God's angel, he who guards the gate, would not let me pass through to meet my punishment. Outside that gate, the skies must circle around as many times as they did when I left, since I delayed good until the end. Unless before then I am helped by prayer that rises from a heart that lives in grace. What use are other prayers ignored by heaven? And now the poet climbed ahead before me and said, "It's time.
See the meridian touched by the sun. Elsewhere along the ocean, night now has set its foot upon Morocco."
Okay. All right. So, um we we will conclude uh um today. Um a reminder tomorrow morning we start at 9:00 exactly. Okay.
Try to come at 8:50. We have a very special uh guest. We're very honored to have him. Professor David Brahmich who was doing professor of English at um Yale. Um his mentor was
236:02Herold Bloom. Of course I I didn't mention that. Um and he will come and talk to us about McBth. He's joining us live from New Haven. Um, and then we will have a discussion uh about Shakespeare and Dante, how they're similar, how they're different.
Uh, and it'll be a very uh interesting conversation. Um, so um yeah, it'll go on for about an hour and then we'll continue reading Purgatory and we'll try to do about 10. Okay, we have like three days more. We have three days left and we'll try to do 10 10 10. Okay.
Um, so please review what we've learned. Any questions about about today before we we end? Any questions, guys? Ask one question then we'll end. Okay.
Yes. Uh very general question, but do you think uh open and free imagination is compatible with organiz organiz organizing a society? because it seems like once a society reaches a certain amount of people and a level of organization, then you need to force people into imagining that your system works.
That's a great question. Okay. Um, and quite honestly, if Dante were alive today, he could not possibly understand why we live the way we do, right? We live in cities of 10 million people. Oh, Beijing is like what 25 million people, but like no one knows each other and like you're just like you're just like a little cog in the machine and like D would be like what's the point of this existence, right?
What are you guys trying to accomplish with this sort of with existence um back then in Italy? Whatever the issues were, at least people knew each other, okay? And at least people had roots. At least people knew why they were they were living. And um happiness had a purpose, right?
You wanted your community to thrive. And now in our world, we're just focused all on just
238:04material acquisition. And as you point out, that's a result of mass society. Okay. Once your society reaches a certain point, your society has to be organized a certain way. Um you lose your sense of community.
You lose your sense of identity. You are just a um empty soul. Um you're basically like you're basically a slave really. Okay. Okay.
I mean, like, I hate to say this, but like, are we not slaves? I mean, I like just the idea of like sending kids to school to learn to read and write so that they can go to university to get to get a useless degree so that they can go make useless money, right? I mean, like what exactly is the point? All right. So, um, as you point out, once society reaches a certain number, it it could be a million, it could be two million, who knows?
Okay. But you're kind of stuck like this and there's no way out of it because uh with this with this amount of people you need bureaucracy and you need hierarchy and you need inequality in order to make the society function. There's really no way around it. But it's an interesting question and it's something that I want to discuss at the end of this class, right? And and the question then is if Dante were to come today, first of all, how would he feel about us?
He'd be and the answer is he'd be pretty disgusted. but also what would Dante recommend that we do? Okay, what are some paths forward given the structure of society today? So, thanks for the question and and we'll come back to it um later on.