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0:00Okay. Um, good morning. Um, welcome back. So, there are a couple of outstanding issues from last class that I would like to uh address. So, Carol's son uh who was here, he had a question about what is difference between pride and ego.
And this is a very hard question. Okay. So first let's think about think about what the ego is. So in the cabala tradition uh and the cabala tradition is very much um influenced by the divine comedy. If you learn the cabala and you read the divine comedy you see a lot of similarities and these are not coincidental but in the cabala tradition um there is divine spark in everyone but it's covered by the husk.
Okay, the husk you can say it's the body, it's the ego, but the but for the Gabala tradition the ego is basically just the body and the desire to fulfill the body which means material pleasures. Okay, so in the Cabala tradition that's what the ego means. Dante doesn't see it that way. Um for Dante the ego is really the divine spark. Okay?
In that it can propel us to uh good things and to bad things. So it's potentiality as opposed to just good or bad. Okay? It's it's potential potentiality. Uh and the ego can lead us astray.
And when it leads us to astray, it's because of pride. Okay? And so for Dante, pride is an issue because it wants you. It wants um the other egos to subordinate to your
2:00ego. All right? So, it's one of superiority, a feeling of superiority where you are above others. And for Donnie, that's a problem because that limits your access to God. Okay?
Love is about equality. It's about uh being egotarian and treating others with respect and trusting others. And the ego, the pride, it's about um elevating yourself above others. Okay. And the classic example of pride in the mind comedy is Virgil, right?
Virgil. [snorts] Okay. So that's the difference for um in most religious traditions there's really they don't really separate the two. Ego is pride but for Dante there is a difference. Ego is potentiality.
It's possibility and pride is a perversion of the ego. Okay. The ego should lead should lead you towards faith, hope and love. And without the ego you could not actually go on this path. But um if you go on the wrong path, it leads you to pride.
Okay. And again uh in the in the divine comedy even though it is not explicit uh Virgil is the manifestation the expression of pride. Okay. And we can see that in his actions um where um he uh but it'll become more obvious as as we go as we go along. Okay.
So that's the first issue. Does does it make sense to everyone? Okay. Uh second issue is the issue of homosexuality. Okay.
And this is an issue that raised concerns um so one question that I was asked yesterday is okay um what's the difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality? Okay. So so it so so thank you for for
4:01phrasing that that question. And I went back and I thought about this and even though my explanation it's okay, it's not truthful enough because the way for us to understand truth is AAM's razor. Okay, Aam's razor is the idea of elegance. Meaning I should be very I should be able to pretty simply and clearly explain the idea and I and I was not able to do that yesterday. It raised a lot of questions.
It raised a lot of doubts. So even though we were approaching the truth, we were not at the truth. So let me today try to more clearly and simply explain the problem of of of homosexuality. Okay? And so um yesterday I made things a bit complicated.
I brought in the idea of incest and that was very confusing. Okay? Let's not do that. Okay? Let's just like stick with Dante.
So with Dante, the key to understanding him is to first appreciate the punishment at work. Okay? Because for Dante, the punishment is God's perfect justice. Okay? So we need to understand the punishment first.
And the punishment for these homosexuals is they are in a plains where like there's raining missiles on them. Okay? And so they have to dodge these missiles. For homosexuals, they have to do it in a group. Okay, they have to do it in a group and if one of them strays from the group, that person is punished harder.
Now, this is interesting to think about because why would homosexuals be punished in such a manner? Okay, so now we we think about let's not think about what they did wrong, but if the punishment is you have to stick together as a group and you're being punished as a group and if you fall away from the group, you're punished even harder. What kind of people should be punished like that?
6:03Right? If we knew what the punishment is and we understand that these punishments are reflection of God's perfect justice, then what kind of people, what did you do wrong in society that would make God punish you like this? Uh yes.
Uh they think they think they're like superior to the to the society as a general. Like they're they feel like they're entitled. So they're they feel like they're above like uh like the normal people.
Good. Okay. So that's getting somewhere. Okay. But again, what do they do wrong?
That sounds like pride, but why are they being punished as a group? Yes,
you know maybe uh homosexual things is kind of group just for male or for female. So if in that case the male they don't need a female and female also don't need a male too. So maybe they're enemy of each other.
Right. Right. Let's not think about like their homosexual. I'm saying what kind of people would deserve the sort of punishment.
Yes. Um, in that conception, people who are super self-centered, you want to force them to be in a group and think as a group.
Okay, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. People who are too selfish and so they have to work together, but they're not they're not working together. They're being punished together, right?
So basically, it's idea of factionalism, right? or mafia or fraternity. Does that make sense? Because the idea of fraternity, the idea of mafia, the idea of factionalism is that you only care about your own group and you're going to hurt others in order to achieve your own interests. And that's why they're being punished like this.
Okay? So now if if it's these people who are engaged in mafia or fraternity or
8:04factionalism that are should be p that that would be punished like this. What does this have to do with homosexuality? Okay, that's a question. All right, and again this should be clear. All right, so so make sure that my logic is clear to you each step of the way.
Right, the punishment is they're being punished for factionalism. The question then is what does this have to do with homosexuality? Okay. Yes.
No. Coming back. So like say in the mafia you act in some way and then you're part of the mafia forever. And we could see the same pattern in homosexuality.
Right. Have Have you guys heard something called the gay mafia? Pig mafia. Gay mafia. Okay.
These are people people who control Hollywood. Right. If you go to Hollywood, they're like we're controlled by the pig mafia. the gay mafia. All right.
So, so, so, so, so let let me explain this. Okay. All right. So, ideal society, everyone should rise according to his or her individual merit. Right?
In an ideal society, that's what Donnie believes. Like, it doesn't matter what faction you are. It doesn't matter where your family comes from. It doesn't matter. All that matters is your individual merit.
That that's what's ideal. But in reality, the people who often triumph are people who are able to conspire together. Right? So the question then is how are homosexuals able to conspire together? Okay.
So, and the reason why is they're often persecuted by society. So, they have to work in secret. Okay. And so they help each other in order to obtain success. They're not not doing it out of evil or malice.
They're doing it just to like be able to love each other. Okay? And so that's why if
10:05you just look at history, if you look at any bureaucracy in any society, the group of people who often climb [snorts] highest in this bureaucracy tend to be homosexuals. Doesn't make sense. Okay. And you go back to Imperial China, the Unix, right? You sorry, you go to the Vatican, right?
You go to Washington DC, you go to Hollywood. It's usually homosexuals that climb to the top. Again, this is not being I'm not saying this is evil, but like just so that they can practice your love for each other. They have to work together, okay? and they have to help each other and so they become a mafia, right?
The pig mafia, the gay mafia and but because of mafia they're able to climb higher together because they're able to coordinate together secretly in a way that others are not able to. Does that make sense? Uh yes.
Could this be linked to your like previous ideas that like by breaking taboo like uh bond is generated?
Yes. Yes. Okay. Uh yes. And that also explains why if one breaks away then he's punished harder because he's breaking the vow to the group and the secret that he had to
Exactly. Exactly. Right. Exactly. Thank you very much.
And the other issue is okay like why can't heterosexuals do this? Because if you're a het heterosexual you marry a woman, right? And the woman demand demands that only you are loyal to her. Whereas with gay lovers, you can share with others, right? You can expand the group in a way you can't expand the group if you were heterosexual.
Does it make sense? All right. Okay. Are you guys following this logic? Okay.
Now, now the question then is like why would this be a bad thing? A bad and the reason why is that if a certain group are able to amass more power for themselves, right? This forces other
12:06people to form their own factions. Does it make sense? in order to compete. You have no choice in the matter, right? So now you have more factionalism going on.
All right? And so now what happens is that the elite fight amongst themselves because it's factional politics now. And when the elite fights fight amongst themselves, they're able what they're doing is they're monopolizing all resources for themselves, which creates more inequality, right, in society. If you if you don't have a faction, when most people don't have a faction, you're completely screwed. And so there's this massive inequality which creates all this economic pressure.
And the only way for you to respond if you're an ordinary person, a faction is to commit fraud, right? And then what happens is lawlessness takes place. So um that's why DA is concerned about homosexuality. He knows that yes, these best and brightest are are homosexuals and he and for him there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. It's what homosexuality leads to in the society that's a problem.
And Donnie is right. If you just look at any society, okay, with a bureaucracy, eventually the homosexuals take over and this creates factionalism. This creates moral decay. This creates lawlessness. This creates corruption.
Right? So does does this make sense now? A yes.
Sorry, I still don't understand why homosexuality is able to form factions while heterosexuality cannot.
Okay. All right. So So let me explain this again. Okay. Oh, wait.
Or or you want to? Yes.
Yeah. Um because I'm thinking of the symmetry between uh uh Inferno 6 uh was it 16 and Paradisial 16? Because in theory in paradigio 16, we're also talking about factions that right
but I guess the core lesson that uh I
14:06think if I remember back for uh on on six paradigial 16 was that
um there was a line there was a concept where it says like uh the the individual should serve the family instead of the family making that individual noble.
Yeah.
You get what I mean? So so so bringing it back to Inferno 16, right? uh with I I don't know if it's homosexuality or self-indulgence of self-centeredness, but the the idea of uh you know cases where I observe people with homosexual tendencies tending to rise is because they are they're able to harness the power of the group to serve them.
Yes.
Right. Uh uh uh by by you know by by withholding participation. So I in my mind that that kind of makes sense and is elegant.
Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. So, so, so let let me explain another way.
Okay. Um, homosexuals are able to have multiple lovers. That's not a problem for them, right? Are do you understand this this idea?
I don't understand because I feel like like love is still lovely.
Okay. So, with heterosexuals, if you love someone, you get married, right? A a marriage is a compact between two people and only two people. And if you bring another person like like like a mistress, well um that breaks the the bond. Do you understand?
Uh yes.
I think for female homosexuals and lesbians, they are more committed to one-on-one relationship. But if it's like male homosexuals, then it's completely different. So it's a different game. It's like you could have multiple lovers and that is okay. So I think that's why it's hard for you as a girl to understand it.
Yeah. Okay. All right. So So yeah. Okay.
Thank you. Yes. Yes. If you're a woman and someone loves you, right, you want that you want that to be a one-on-one thing, right? Whereas if you're a man, you don't really care.
So So you'll be
16:07able to have like a large um network of male lovers. And again, like if you just like look at any history, whether it's Washington DC or Hollywood, I mean, like it's pretty common. Okay. Uh yes.
And I think it's uh not just about like being being a homosexual. It's about like having a same vision so you can like uh assemble a group of people together like secret society and it follows the same logic, right? To to infiltrate the bureaucracy.
Yeah. No, I again I don't think the intention is evil. I just think they they want to they just want to like be homosexuals, right? Because that's what gives them happiness. But to do so because they're so heavily persecuted by others, they have no choice but to be become a secret society.
Okay. Um uh yes.
And I also have heard that uh in homosexual society uh the people they got their some people they got their right to have more lover but some people they don't have the right to get and some people play in the male role and some people play in the female role. So this kind of hierarchy order in the uh some homosexual uh you know society like that. Yeah.
Right. Yes. Okay. Yes.
Um, yeah. So, well, we're talking about like back then gay marriage or homosexuality was more like persecuted, but nowadays more accepted, right? So for example like when you look at Tel Aviv or like this like where for example also the middle class people are more open and homosexual and they're not really like about taking power or like trying to overthrow society
right so so so this is what Donn is saying here um as rising society's focus on expanding society on family on marriage. A lot of social policies are centered around the family. Okay. But once a society has become decadent, then the
18:08elite don't really care about society. All they care about is indulging in their own desires and they want to feel good about themselves and they really don't care about the impact on society. Um so so if you look at today yes there is openness and acceptance but at the same time the level of political corruption it is out it is just out it is just incredible the level of political corruption. Okay not just like you look at Washington DC where the Trump family is just engaged in the most egurious uh corruption and they're not even hiding it. Okay?
They're just open about it. They're like, you know, if you give me if you give me if you're in prison, you give me like, you know, $10 million, I'll let you out. It's open. Okay. Now, let me let me ask you this.
Okay. Let's imagine Donald Trump, he's kicked out of office in 2028. The the Democrats come in. What are they going to do?
Uh, yes.
Put him in prison.
They'll probably put him in prison. And then what? What are they going to do?
It's going to purge his family.
Excuse me.
It's going to purge his family. purge the Trump.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They they'll go after Trump, but then what are they going to do?
Ask for a ransom.
They'll probably be even worse. Okay. Do you understand? They they'll they'll say, you know, like when you come in, we'll clean house and we'll restore the sanctity of the American Republic. No, they're not.
When they come in, they'll engage engage even more corruption. Okay. So, so that's what Don is is saying here like when the elite lose their sense of responsibility for the people then society just becomes loses its anchor it just goes into freef fall okay and um yes I mean I don't want to say homosexuality is bad but um the
20:09reason why people kept homosexuality hidden before was they had pay they they had to be they had to pay virtue to the family, right? They had to pretend at least the family was important. Yeah. I mean, like they probably had these homosexual affairs on the side, but at least they were hypocrites. At least they made a point of like playing to the public perception, right?
Yes.
Yeah. What about LGBT? Do you think Danting will agree with that or do you think
it's the same thing as homosexuality, right? There's no difference. uh you know it's the same idea. It's it's the same sense of like self-indulgence and what matters is my own pleasure, my own happiness and I really don't care the impact on society. Okay, does it make sense guys?
All right. So, so again what we're doing is we're trying to um logically come to understand uh Dante's uh cosmology. Okay. All right. So um but again I want to thank you guys for raising questions for doubting for challenging because this helps us as a group to think much more deeper.
Okay so Dante implants in the mind comment a lot of paradoxes which allows us to think deeper and we are we are able to arrive at the truth through uh exploration and through debate. Okay. Uh yes,
I think one thing that would be worth exploring is to actually interview, you know, maybe people around us who are homosexuals. Um you know, what what what exactly Dante is trying to convey here because I I guess at the end of the day, all punishment is self punishment, right? It it it's it's a it's a it's an internal loop, right? I think the answers would be in in in in those individuals just asking just, you know, maybe trying to learn more.
Okay. Um, so, um, a couple comments. Um, uh, first of all, this is being live streamed and we need to be conscious of
22:10protecting people's privacy. Okay. Um, uh, but yes, I I think that if we were to share our stories more, this would help the discussion, but the constraint is that this is being um live stream. Uh and the other thing is that because it's being live streamed and because we're dealing with different contexts, we're in China, we're broadcasting a global audience. Um you know, we are at the Yale Beijing center.
Uh we need to be conscious of the cultural sensitivities of each c of of each place. Okay. Um um and um look, censorship is a reality in this world. Ideally, we we be free to complete explore and that's what leads to greatest truth. But we're living in a time of massive censorship and where you'll be judged uh unfairly for things you say.
Okay? Uh this is a different time. I mean, when I was growing up, when we were in college, like like free speech was the primary ideal like like it's something like you don't you don't do that to people like you you may disagree with them, but you don't censor them. that that that was that was what was considered a sin. Now it's this very common practice to cancel people for things they they they say people are judged very harshly.
Yes.
Um so I actually had this question yesterday as well. So what about those people who purposefully chose not to have kids cuz in some ways they're also blocking social mobility just like the homosexuals in a certain way but they're not depicted in like anywhere in the divine comedy. So,
and and how would Donnie feel about these people who don't have kids?
Like, if they chose not to have kids, I feel like in some ways it's like similar to like the homosexual. So, I feel like he should have like a similar feeling.
Well, okay. Okay. Well, here's here's a
24:11question then. Okay. In the Catholic Church, what kind of people are most revered? Yeah. Yeah.
Right. That's a problem. Monks and Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.
And also you have to take in the time back then in the 14th century there's probably no condoms and so there's no way like you said that I want to choose to be not having kids if I'm married. It's not usually an option unless you're a priest. Obviously you're not married in the first place.
So then for Dante it's hard to understand they are married couples who choose and you know could not have kids. So then that's why maybe it's not in the you know listed here. It's not an option back then.
And also like if you're a woman, okay, if you had a free will, you probably would not want to get married. Why?
That doesn't know. Yeah,
because if you give birth, there's one/ird of a chance or more that you're going to die.
Yeah. Guys, do you understand how how awful it was to be a woman back then? There were no condoms. There was no hygiene. There were no hospitals.
Onethird chance of dying in childbirth, right? It's like suicide.
And like quite honestly
like you're expected to give birth a lot, right? It's like the first one hit you.
It's very common for a woman to die at child birth at this time. So including including Beatric. Beatric died giving birth at 24. At 24, right? So so so yeah.
Okay. Uh any more questions before we we move on? Yes. So in my in my research of Arisatilian tieios like have you just I missed it yesterday afternoon. Did you discuss the tieios?
Like everything has a specific purpose in life. And I see I see the difference between lust and homosexuality because they're on separate levels as being like lust. You're focusing on one thing one thing
26:11perhaps the correct thing, right? Because if if uh uh Augustine and Dante would be saying um the purpose of of of a relationship would be reproduction and marriage. If you're lusting, that could happen. You're just wanting it in maybe an incorrect way or too much. But in homosexuality, the tio is off because there there is no reproduction that could happen.
And so I see this as or I don't see this. I'm I'm reading scholars who are pointing out that homosexuality is just simply enough an incorrect tios and lust is a correct tio, but at an incorrupt incorrect proportion. And so all of this extra stuff might be fine and social. It just seems like muddying the waters where Aristoilian uh understanding would simplify it.
Okay. So that you bring up Aristotle and that that's a very interesting analysis. At this time Aristotle is very popular and Dante would have known Aristotle. He would have known the idea of tilos. The idea of tilos is purpose right?
You come here for purpose and you achieve happiness by achieving your your tilos. And on that idea, Dante would agree. But um but for Aristotle, Tilos is really about fulfilling your social responsibility. Whereas for Dante, he's very much an individualist, meaning like for Tilos is about fulfilling yourself. Okay.
Now um their students would say there's really no difference but uh for Dante there is a major difference right one the difference is uh between fulfilling people's expectation of your toss as to number two really understanding your toss and achieving your toss okay and so basically what the
28:11students say is look society knows what's best and if society says you should go have children then that's your tilos But what Donna would say, no, no, no. You trust your intuition, right? If your tilos is like I I want to write poetry for the rest of my life and I I don't want to have children, then you should just follow your your intuition. Okay. So So that's that's the difference.
But but but absolutely right. Aristotle is very important at this state at this time in history. All right. Any more comments or questions? This is great by the way.
Um and it really shows uh your depth of understanding has radically improved over the past few days. Yes. uh like uh previously you said that uh any any great art in the history uh whether it's uh Homer or uh divine comedy was often created by one single person right and uh and is uh often drived by the strong will and and uh but like I think uh like go back to the question of about like self-indulgence um but like There also can be a like those narcissist can also hold a strong will right while being like uh self-indulgent. Uh so what separates a a artist like sacred inwardness with uh to a to a narcissist?
Okay. All right. So yesterday I I I I did say the problem of homosexuality is self-indulgence. And I recognize that is incorrect. Okay.
That's why I went back and I suffered and I came up with a new understanding. And in this new understanding, the problem isn't self-indulgence. The problem is factionalism. Okay. So, Donnie is not saying in self-indulgence is a problem.
Prize is a problem. Self-indulgence is not a problem. You need a you need a bit of self-love. You need a bit of ego if you are if you are to achieve or or create a a great piece of art. Okay.
All right. All right. Great. Any more questions before we start? Okay.
Let
30:12let's let's start k uh inferno 21 kanto 21. We came along from one bridge to another talking of things my comedy is not concerned to sing. We held fast to the summit then stayed our steps to spy the other clft of Melabj and other vain laments. I saw that it was wonderfully dark as in the arsenal of the Venetians. All winter long a stew of sticky pitch boils up to patch their sick and tattered ship that cannot sail.
Instead of v voyaging some build new keels, some tow and tar the ribs of hole worn out by too much journeying. Some hammer at the prow, some at the stern, and some make orars and some braid ropes and cords. One mens the jib and other the main sail. So not by fire, but by the art of God below there boiled a thick and terry mass that covered all the banks with clamminess. I saw it, but I could not see within it.
Nothing was visible but boiling bubbles, the swelling of the pitch, and then it settled. And while I watched below attentively, my guide called out to me, "Take care. Take care." And then from where I stood, he drew me near. I turn around as one who's impatient to see what he should shun, but is dashed down beneath the terror he has undergone, who does not stop his flight, and yet would look, and then in back of us I saw a black demon as he came racing up the cracks. Ah, he was surely barbarous to see, and how relentless seemed to me his ax.
His wings were open, his feet were light across his shoulder, which was sharp and high. He had slung a sinner upward from the thighs. In front the demon gripped him by the ankles. Then from our bridge he called, "Ola Branche, I've got an elder of St. Svita for you.
Shove this one under. I'll go back for more. His city is well furnished with such stores.
32:12There everyone's a grafter but Bonuro. And there for cash they'll change a no to yes." He threw the center down that wheeled along the stony cliff. No mastiff ever been unleashed with so much haste to chase a thief. The sinner plunged, then surfaced, black with pitch. But now the demons from beneath the bridge shouted.
The sacred face has no place here. Here we swim differently than in this circ. If you don't want to feel our grappling hooks, don't try to lift yourself above that ditch. They pricricked him with a 100 prongs and more. and then taunted here.
One dances undercover, so try to grab your secret graft below.
Okay. All right. So, we are in the circle of fraud where everyone lies and deceives and steals. Uh and here this is the punishment for the for garafters, people who engage in corruption and graft. And um the example being used is this um priest who who obviously is engaging in simmon.
And um the punishment is to basically fester in boiling uh in a in boiling excrement. And some of them feel the pain so much that they try to escape. They try to escape and then the demons catch them and tear them and tear them apart. And that that is their uh punishment. Okay.
All right. Uh, let's keep on going.
Line 55. The demons did the same as any cook who has his urchins forced the meat with hooks deep down into the pot that it not float. Then my good master said to me, "Don't let those demons see that you're here. Take care to crouch behind the cover of a crag. No matter what offense they offer me, don't be afraid.
I know how these things go. I'll had to face such processes before. When this was said, he moved
34:13beyond the bridge head, and on the sixth embankment, he had need to show his imperturbility. With the same frenzy, with the bruhaha of dogs, when they beset a poor wretch, who then stops dead in his tracks as if to beg. So from beneath the bridge, the demons rushed against my guide with all their prongs. But he called out, "Can't you forget your savagery before you tried to maul me? Just let one of your troops step forward, hear me out, and then decide if I'm to be hooked." At this they howed, "Let Melakota go." And one of them moved up, the other stayed.
And as he came, he asked, "How can he win?" "A Malakota, do you think I've come?" my master answered him. already armed as you can see against your optics obstacles without the will of God and helpful fate. Let us move on. It is the will of heaven for me to show this wild way to another. At this the pride of Malakakota fell as prong dropped his feet.
He told his fellows, "Since that's the way things stand, let us not wound him." My guide my guide then spoke to me. Oh you who crouch bent low among the bridges splintered rocks, you can feel safe and now return to me. Okay. So, um Dante and Virgil see these demons. Okay.
And in this stage in the story, there are some things that are unusual. What What's unusual about the story? What is it that that that that's happening that didn't really happen before? What strikes you as strange in the story so far? as yes that demons are the one punishing whereas before it was like natural causes.
Yes. Okay. Yes. So so f first of all um demons are in charge of of the punishment. Uh yes.
Okay. But there's a
36:14bigger surprise here and this didn't really happen before. Where's Dante? He's hiding, right? This hasn't happened before. This is the first time that that Donnie is hiding.
So, what does this tell us about the emotional state of Virgil? How's he feeling right now? Why would why would Donnie hide here but not elsewhere? Right. They went to the city of this and that this was this was also ruled by fallen angels.
But D didn't hide. Yes.
I think he starts to lose trust in Virgil and he's afraid of Virgil can't control the demons that he used to.
But but who told Donn to hide?
Virgil?
It was Virgil who told D to hide, right? So that doesn't make much sense. But keep on going. What's going on here? Yeah, Virgil's afraid.
It's not D who's afraid. It's Virgil who's afraid. Okay. And so, how does Virgil respond to his own fear? What what are ways in which you you you can respond with fear to fear to your own fear?
How is Virgil responding to his fear?
By all fright. So either you fight it or you run away from it. So he kind of fights it. He kind of stands up and be like, "Hey, bring one guy and talk to me and let's see if we can figure this out."
Right. Okay. Yes.
Well, by projecting his fear onto someone else, he can he kind of can deal with it. [clears throat] Well, because Virgil, I don't know. How can he even feel fear if he's not alive?
38:14If he's not even it's not what I I don't understand.
So he doesn't have a body but he still has emotions. Right. Right. Otherwise how could you be punished in hell if you have absolutely no emotions? You can't feel any punishment.
Right. So you still have emotions. Right. How does how does Virgil choose to confront the demons? Right?
Virgil's afraid of the demons. So what does he do to deal with the demons?
The there's a higher power protecting me. So don't touch me.
Yeah. Right. He's flexing. He's being arrogant. Right.
So to deal with his fear, he's choosing to be proud and arrogant before the demons. Okay? And the demons sense his pride and they uh lower themselves to uh Virgil. Okay? Does that make sense the logic here?
Virgil's afraid and he doesn't really know how to control control the situation. So his first instinct is to protect Dante. Uh and then Virgil goes up and confronts the demons and flexes, right? Says, you know, I'm much stronger than you. Obey me.
And demon's like, fine, whatever. Okay. Right. Why should we we be suspicious here of of what's going on? Yes,
I have a question because uh I remember you said uh the vir should be master of the of the hell but why he just freed of demon in this case
because you're doing factions in hell right the thing about hell is like it's like Italy where no one's really in charge and no one's fighting each other because of their pride right okay so he he's master or certain parts of hell, but not all parts of hell. As as you go deeper into hell, he loses control. Okay. All right. Okay.
40:18Like if you're a demon and someone is flexing at you, what what should your response be? Yeah. Like I can punch you out, man. Right. So So this is very suspicious.
You know, again, this is a paradox. And whenever there's a paradox, it forces us to think deeper, right? Why are the demons being so obedient, right? Why are the demons luring themselves? And and so what what do you think the answer is?
We are in the circle of fraud, guys. Deception, right? Do you understand? Okay, that's that's what these demons are. They are engaged in deception.
They enjoy deception, right? Does that make sense? And if you are this demon and you're a head demon and you love deception, you think you can deceive Virgil. Why? Okay.
Okay. So let us um think of an example from real life. Okay. All right. Um yes.
Because by uh by trick by trickering Virgil, you basically mocking God.
No, no, no, no. I'm trying to figure out how he figured out you can trick Virgil. Uh yes.
Virgil's in is in limbo. So he's in a relatively speaking much nicer place than these pe these guys.
Okay. All right. All right. So we don't want to overthink things. Okay.
The solution has to be simple and elegant. So let's just think think of an example where you know you're with your friend. Okay. And maybe you know you go to uh and I'm just making this up. Okay.
42:18you go to you go to Turkey for vacation and your friend um you know may maybe maybe your friend lives in Turkey and you're going to go visit your friend in Turkey right and your friend in Turkey wants to show you a good time so then your friend takes you to this uh bazaar the store and he's like you know like oh I I know how to haggle right do you understand the logic here right
and what's a Show show stop show stop show stop show stop show stop show stop show owning going to do he he's going to see like you're friend right you don't want to lose face you want to show how much in control you are right doesn't make sense and so you recognize oh it's this arrogance it's this pride I can take advantage of doesn't make sense okay so so again the thing thing about literature is you can always apply it to real life and it has to make sense Okay. Does does that make sense, guys? All right. So, the demon recognizes, hm, Virgil thinks he's got God in his side, right? Well, I can probably rip him off now, right?
Because he's so he's so arrogant. He's so full of himself. It's easier to trick arrogant people than it's trick humble people. Okay? Does that make sense?
All right. Uh let's let's keep on going. Line 88. My guide then spoke to me. Oh you who crouch bent low but among the bridg's splintered rocks.
You can feel safe and now return to me. At this I moved and quickly came to him. The devils had edged forward. All of them. I feared that they might fail to keep their word.
Just so I saw the infantry where they mar when they marched out under safe conduct from Caprona. They trembled when they passed their enemies. My body huddled closer to my guide. I did not let the demons out of sight. The looks
44:19they cast at us were less than kind.
How How is Dante feeling right now?
Scared.
Yeah, he's probably like, "This doesn't this doesn't feel right." Okay. You know, you're at this bizaar and it's clear the shop owner is going to rip us off. We should be careful, right? But your friend's like, "No, I know this guy. Okay.
We're like we we're like, you know, we went to school together. He's going to give me face. He's going to give us a best deal. Okay. All right.
So, Dante is afraid. Um, Kim, line 100. They bent their hooks and shouted to each other. And shall I give it to him on the rump? And all of them replied, "Yes, let him have it." But Malakakota, still in conversation with my good guide, turned quickly to his squadron and said, "Be still, Scar Scar Leone, still." To us, he said, "There's no use in going much farther on this ridge because the sixth bridge at the bottom there is smashed to bits.
Yet, if you two still want to go ahead, move up and walk along this rocky edge nearby, another which will form a path." Five hours from this hour yesterday, 1,266 years passed since that roadway was shattered here. I'm sending 10 of mine out there to see if any sinners lift this head for air. Go with my men. There's no malice in them.
Okay, so he's saying that keep don't keep on going because a bridge was destroyed by Jesus when he came to hell. There's another way. I'm going to send 10 of my men with you. And again, just the idea that he says there is no malice in them, like don't do evil. You should be careful, right?
Like we won't trick you, okay? We mean you no harm. That's probably a sign you should be careful. But again, Virgil is too arrogant to recognize this. Okay, keep on going.
46:21Line 118. Step forward, Alakino and Kabrina. He then began to say, "And you Kanyazzo and Babaricia, who can lead the 10? Let it be and Drainato and Tusky Cherato and Rafia Kane and Farello and Matt Rubicante. Search all around the clammy stew of pitch.
Keep these two safe and sound till the next bridge that rise without break across the den." A me? What is it this master that I see? I said, "Can't we do without company? If you know how to go, I want no escort. If you're just as keen as usual, can't you see how those demons grind their teeth?
Their brows are menacing. They promise trouble. And he to [snorts] me, I do not want you frightened. Just let them nash away as they may wish. They do it for the wretches boiled in pitch.
They turned around along the left bank, left hand bank. But first each pressed his tongue between his teeth a signal for their leader Barbaricia and he had made a trumpet of his ass. Okay. So um what does Donnie do here that he's never done before? Yeah.
Do you guys do you guys see this? Okay. He's actually challenging Virgil verbally. Maybe before he had before he had his doubts, right? But he kept them secret out of respect for Virgil.
So why is Sony doing this? Why is Donnie challenging Virgil and saying we really shouldn't trust these guys, right? He's he's he's now verbally challenging Virgil. Why? Excuse me.
He's afraid of getting tricked.
Okay. He's fear. Yes. Uh what else?
Isn't Virgil's pride getting in the way here? And so Dante is just like, "Forget about getting the good deal at the bizaar, man. Let's just let's just go."
Exactly. Right. And why would you do
48:21that?
I mean, I would do it because of frustration. I would just be like, "There's a simpler way. You're making this more complex than it needs to be." Why Dante does it, I don't.
Okay. Okay. Uh, yes. Well, just his intuition maybe says it. So,
right. But but again, we've been reading the Divine Comedy, and there are lots of cases where Donna doesn't really feel right about this about the situation, but doesn't really speak up, right? He's afraid, but he doesn't really speak up. And now he not only does he speak up, but he's actually challenging Virgin says like here your intuition may not be correct. Why would he do that?
Yes. I think it's basically his literary work is trying to show that maybe he's hinting that he could be better than Virgil because he's the meek and human like the humble one. So he could see the truth more simply than Virgil. So he's trying to show that this is the turning point where I will be, you know, the better poet or the better person in the situation.
Okay. All right. Let's think think of an example. Okay. So, you're in school and this is primary school and there's a classmate and this classmate, you know, is cheating.
Okay? Now, there there's going to be some classmates who are going to go up to up to him and says, "Hey, I saw you cheating. Don't cheat." Okay? There'll be some other classmates who just ignore this. What's the difference?
Who would go up to the cheating student and says, "Look, you're cheating and the teacher teacher is going to catch you, so maybe you should stop." In what instance would you Yes,
it could be as an act of love. When you
It's an act of love. Do you understand?
50:21It's an act of love because you're putting yourself at risk as well, right? you're you're putting yourself when you tell your friend, "Let's get out of here." Right? Not only are you angering the your friend's pride, but you might piss off the the shop owner as well. It's an act of love. You're putting yourself at risk.
Okay? Does that make sense? It's not an act of like, "I know more than you, Virgil." Right? You can't know more than Virgil because Virgil is your guide in hell. It's an act of like Virgil, uh, I love you and, uh, I want to protect you as you're protecting me.
Okay. So, what this is telling us is that what this really what this journey really is, it's it's a journey into love where Ver Don before had tremendous respect for Virgil, but now they're just becoming like very close because all these adventures they're having in at in um in hell, right? Um does that make sense guys? And so this is this so what's really important to understand is not just the cosmology, not just understand um dynastyology, but really understand that this ultimately um a journey um and a love story between Dante and Virgil. Okay.
So there is this there's this conflict between the two, but there's also real deep affection between the two and it's very much real. Okay. and and we know what's going to happen. We know that eventually they'll have to uh part. Okay.
But the idea is to create so much affection in us for Virgil and Dante that when they do part, we we we cry with them when they do part. Okay. Does that make sense? All right. I guess she had said something that I wanted to build off of.
Dante the poet. So there's three Dantes. Dantes the poet sat down to write this recollection to get to explain faith, hope, and love. But I guess they could all be unified as capital T truth. And he's in the realm of liars, right?
And
52:22so essentially he would be like the longer that we stay here in the realm of liars, they're ruining my poem of truth, right? So let's let's get out of the lie realm because I'm I'm transcribing truth,
right? Okay. So that's an interesting interpretation. And um I would disagree uh because why would why is it important for Dante to journey into hell, right? Because because why is Donnie talking to these souls that are being punished?
To
learn to see,
right? But but then what?
Yeah. Yes.
Because it's the way to paradise.
Um it's Yeah, it's it's the way to paradise. But remember when Virgil and Donnie are talking, right? Virgil says, "Go talk to that guy." And then and then the soul's like, "I don't want to talk to you. And then Virgil's like, "You should talk to him because what what does Virgil say? What can Donnie do for them?
Why should they talk to him? Talk to him?" Yes.
Um, go back to the world and talk about the consequences of sins.
Exactly. Okay. Donnie is going to record this. So, it's very important for Donnie to experience as much as he can in hell. It's not about escaping hell.
It's about truly understanding hell to share with other people. Okay? And this is the path to truth. Uh not to avoid something but to experience it for yourself and then that way that heightens your understanding. Okay.
All right. Uh let's uh keep on going. This is count 20. Uh this is count 22. Okay.
54:23Kanto 22. Before this I've seen horsemen start to march and open the assault and muster ranks and seen them too at times beat their retreat. And oh your land, oh Aritines, I've seen rangers and raiding parties galloping. The clash of tournaments, the rush of joust. Now done with trumpets, now with bells, and now with drums, and now with signs from castle walls, with native things, and with imported wear.
But never yet have I seen horsemen, or seen infantry, or ship that sails by signal of land, or star moved to so strange a bugle. We made our way together with 10 demons. Ah, what ferocious company, and yet in church with saints, with roers in the tavern. But I was all intent upon the pitch to seek out every feature of the pouch and of people who were burning in it. Just as the dolphins do when with arched back they signal to the seaman to prepare for tempest that their vessel may be spared.
So here from time to time to ease his torment. Some sinners showed his back above the surface then hit more quickly than a lightning flash. And just as on the margin of a ditch frogs crouched their snouts alone above the water so as to hide their feet and their plump flesh. So here on every side these sinners crouched but faster than a flash. When barbaricia drew near they plunged beneath the boiling pitch.
I saw my heart still shutters and recall one who delayed just at just as at times a frog is left behind while others dive below with graphic who was closest to him then hooked him by his pitch and tangled locks and hauled him up. He seemed to me an otter. By now I knew the names of all those demons. I'd paid attention when the fiends were chosen. I'd watch as they stepped forward one by one.
Oh, Rubicante, see you set your talents right into him so you can flay his flesh so that those cursed ones cry out together. And I, my master, if you can find out what is the name of that unfortunate Roose fallen victim who to his enemies.
56:25My guide, who then drew near that sinner's side, asked him to tell his birthplace. He replied, "My homeland was the kingdom of Naare. My mother who had had me by a wastel of himself and his possessions had placed me in the service of the Lord." Then I was in the household of the worthy kings of Tibol. There I started taking graft with this heat I pay reckoning for that. And Cherato, from whom smouthe right and left two tusks like a wild hogs, then let him feel how one of them could mangle.
The mouse had fallen in with evil cats, but Barbaricia clasped him in its arms and said, "Stand off there while I fork him fast, and turning toward my master," then he said, "Ask Con if you would learn some more from him before one of the others dust him in."
Okay, stop. Okay. All right. So, um, let's think about this. This is an unusual punishment because it gives the people here an opportunity to escape, right?
It's not like they're locked in place. It's like, you know, there's a boiling pitch, the boiling lake, and you can always escape it, right? Why would this be a fitting punishment for people who engage in graft? Yes. Go ahead.
In graft, they take resources and things away from people who should have them,
right? Okay. And so why would this be a fitting punishment for them? Huh?
Uh, yes.
Maybe because it's doing that is so addicting that they can't stop doing it,
58:25right? Okay. So, there's a compulsion to them. Yes. Right.
They have to steal. They have to engage in grab. Yes. Okay. That's part part of it.
Yes.
Yeah. The mechanism of it. If you steal something, you can always at every part of the journey, you can always decide to to turn back and give it give it back, you know, return whatever you stole.
Why do people engage in graft? What's the mentality of people who engage in graft? Right? Why do they steal? What what's your mentality?
Maybe it's covereting of what others have that you don't have, so you want to have it.
Then why is this not greed? What's going on here? What what's the mentality? Why do they engage in graft? Uh yes.
Oh yeah. You mean stealing, right? I think stealing is kind of thing that you want to get something uh and also you can get much more benefit from it. But there's no punishment. There's nothing good uh nothing bad there.
So that's why people when they just like to steal, they just stick to steal something. It's it's really hard to give it up. Yeah.
Uh so yeah, go ahead.
Yeah. Well, also when you steal, you decide that this thing that you're stealing is more deserving for you than the owner. Like you say like in your in this action like I deserve this and the owner doesn't really.
But why why do you deserve it?
Well, maybe pride. Okay. Anyone else? Yes. At the back.
I feel like for greed, you are kind of more focusing on like a specific thing. For example, like money and whatever, but then stealing you're kind of like stealing anything.
Yes.
Yeah. Like a lot of a variety of stuff.
But what is graph? You're stealing from who?
Graft has to come from a position of power.
60:25Okay. So the person here right he becomes a servant to a powerful lord and then he starts to steal from this powerful lord. Why is he doing that? Yes.
Because the Lord is at a better financial position.
Yeah. But then the Lord's being generous to him, right? So why would you steal from him?
I guess you you don't respect the Lord. You don't love the Lord. But yeah, but why don't you respect the Lord?
You reject the inherent hierarchy in your relationship.
Okay. Uh yes. Uh maybe because just like you you you are in the Chin dynasty and they just try to uh steal something from emperor because they think this they deserve they deserve to have it because they just pay tribute to the emperor all the time. So
okay. So, so let's let's think of like a most common example of graph. Okay, which is the accountant, right? So, you're a rich person. You have an accountant and for accounting tricks, that person is able to steal a lot of money from you.
What's the mentality mentality of that person? Exactly. I I'm going to get away with this. Right. Exactly.
Right. It's not that I'm better than you. I like I I get I can get away with this. I'm smarter than you. That's what graft is.
I'm gonna get away with this. There's no punishment. I'm so sneaky. I'm so clever. I can get away with this.
So why would this punishment be fitting for these people? Okay, they are in the boiling pitch. That kind of sucks. They escape and they're caught by demons who do what to them?
Outsmart them.
These demons literally tear them apart, right? Which is the worst punishment? The second one. Right. So, it's kind of silly where look, if you just stay where you are, if you just stay in that boring
62:25pitch, it kind of sucks, but it's a lot better than being like, you know, torn to pieces by demons, right? But they can't help themselves. They're like, "No, I have to escape." Because they're they're always like, "I'll get away." Right? But like, we know for a fact you're not going to get away because this is hell. This is God's perfect justice.
There's no way you're going to escape hell. But for the reason they're like, "No, I will escape this time even though for the past 10 million times I was caught by the demon and and you know destroyed." Okay. Okay. Does that make sense? Okay.
Yes.
Wait. So when they're torn to pieces, they the bodies get back together or
uh Yeah. So they're torn to pieces, then they resurrect in in a boiling pitch.
Then they do it again.
And then something happens. and they do it again. This happens like for all eternity. Okay. So, it's it's it's it's almost like this compulsion where they think I'll get away this time, right?
I'll I won't get caught this time. I'll be so sick this time. But it's absolutely pointless. Okay. Does that make sense?
All right. Keep on going.
Line 64. at which my guide now tell among the sinners who hide beneath the pitch are any others Italian and he I've just left one who was nearby there and would I wear still covered by the pitch as he is hidden for then I'd have no fear of hook or talon and Liby said we've been too patient and with his grapple grabbed him by the arm and ripping carried off a hunk of flesh but Dragunato also looked as if to grab his legs at which their captain wheeled and threatened all of them with raging looks when they'd grown somewhat less tumultuous without delay. My guide asked of that one who had his eyes still fixed upon his wound. Who was the one you left to come ashore? And luckily, as you just said before, he answered, "Fragomita of Galura, who was
64:26a vessel fit for every fraud. He had his master's enemies in his in hand, but handled them in ways that pleased them all. He took their go gold and smoothly let them off as he himself says and in other matter matters he was a sovereign not a petty swindler. His comrade there is Don McKlly Zank of Logodoro and their tongues are never too tired to talk of their sardinia me see that one there who grinds his teeth. If I were not afraid I'd speak some more but he's getting set to scratch my scarf.
and their great marshall facing Farfarel who was so hot to strike he rolled his eyes said get away from there you filthy bird if you perhaps would like to see her here that sinner terrified began again Lombards or Tuscans I can fetch you some but let the melibbron stand aside so that my comrades may not fear their vengeance remaining in this very spot I shall although alone make seven more appear when I have whistled as has been our custom when on one of us has managed to get out.
Okay, so Donnie and Virgil wants to meet more of these sinners and uh the sinner says, "Well, they're all in hiding." And the demons are like, "Uh, let's just start tearing this guy apart because that's what we enjoy doing." And the sinner's like, "No, no, no. If you leave me alone, I I'll trick seven more to appear before you." Everyone's in hiding. So, so if you demons just hide yourself, then I will tell them to come out and then you can catch seven more people to apart. Okay. So, this is the circle of fraud, circle of deception.
We should be wary of every of everything people do here. Okay. All right. Uh, keep on going.
Line 106. At that, Kyato lifted up his snout and shook his head and said, "Just listen to that trick by which he thinks he can dive back." To this, he who was rich in artifice replied, "Then I must
66:26have too many tricks if I bring greater torment to my friends. This was too much for Alino, and despite the others," he cried out, "If you dive back, I should not gallop after you, but beat my wings above the pitch. We'll leave this height with the embankment as a screen. will see if you alone can handle us. Oh you who read here now of this new sport.
Each turned his eye upon the other shore. He first who'd been most hesitant before. The never in nick of time had planted his feet upon the ground. Then in an instant he jumped and freed himself from their commander. At this each demon felt the prick of guilt and most he who had led his man to blunder.
So he took off and shouted, "You are caught." But this could help him little. Wings were not more fast than fear. The sinner plunged right under. The other flying up lifted his chest. Not otherwise.
The wild duck when it plunges precipitously when the falconers and then exhausted thwart it flies back up. But Calcabrina, raging at the trick, flew after Alino. He was keen to see the sinner free and have a brawl. And once Darvarez had disappeared, he turned his talons on his fellow demon and tangled with him just above the ditch. But Alino clawed him well.
He was indeed a full-grown kestrel, and both fell into the middle of the boiling pond. The heat was quick to disentangle them, but still there was no way they could get out. Their wings were stuck and meshed in glue like pitch. And Barbarichia grieving with the rest said sent forth to fly out toward the other shore with all their forks. And speedily enough on this side and on that they took their posts and toward those two stuck fast already cooked beneath that crust.
They stretched their grappling hooks. We left them still contending with that mess.
Okay. All right. So um um this sinner he he tricks the demons right says like you know if you leave me alone for a few
68:26seconds I will bring in more sinners [snorts] and the demons believe him and then the sinner escapes and the demons chase after him and they fall into the pit. Okay so the there's a paradox here right the sinner has lied to the demons but there's a paradox. What is a paradox? Do do you guys remember what the paradox is? Yes.
The demons are punished but the sinner is not.
Okay. Well, the demons are are just being stupid, right? But but but there's a paradox. Why do demons believe him? There's a paradox here.
Okay. You you guys you guys probably don't remember. Okay. But there's a rule in hell. The rule in hell is if you're so being punished, whatever words you speak to Dante and Virgil must be true.
You understand? You cannot lie to Virgil and Dante. That's that's the rule in hell. But clearly the sinner has lied to the demons, right? So how how come so what's going on here?
This is a contradiction. Okay. So let's think about this. Okay. So the demons are saying you're lying to us.
And then he says he then the sinner says then I must have too many tricks if I bring greater torment to my friends. Is this a lie? What's he saying here?
70:31What are you saying here?
Like the demons are trying to hurt Dante and Virgil.
No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying what does this line mean? Then I must have too many tricks if I bring greater torment to my friends.
Wait, let's go back. Yes. But but it's true.
He's not lying to you. Okay? Do you understand? You just read what he writes, what he's speaking. It's not a lie technically.
You understand? It's not a deception. Technically, you're just misinterpreting what he's saying, right? So, let's go back to the example of like, you know, your friend takes you to the bazaar, right? And the bizaar shop owner says, "This is the best teacup in the world." Um, then your friend your friend's like, "You you're lying to us." And the shop owner says, "If I'm lying to you, then I have no friends in the world." It could be true.
Okay? Do you understand? If I'm lying to you, I have no friends in the world. Right? You interpret to say, "Okay, well then he's not lying to me." But it could be true, right?
If I'm lying to you, I have no friends in the world. You understand? And this this is what we call sulfry, right? Sulfestry, right? You just think you're smarter than everyone else.
You think that you know more than everyone else and you'll get away with everything, so you keep on doing it. Okay? And so he's just playing tricks with words. Does it make sense? So he's not lying cuz you cannot lie in hell,
72:32but he's engaging in sophistry. Okay. The constructive words to make you uh to manipulate you. Does that make sense? All right.
Uh let's keep on going. Yes.
Um, how come he has the will to escape? Do people even think of escaping or just they think of suffering less in hell?
Okay. Yeah. So, it's not the will to escape. It's a compulsion to prove you're smarter than everyone else. It's a compulsion to cheat other people.
You understand? But the point is all you're doing is you're cheating yourself, right? because all you're doing is uh escaping into a greater punishment. You just if you just honest and stay where you are, you'll be fine. But you you constantly want to escape.
It's a it's it's a addiction. Okay.
Right. So the people who you know, at least accountants who steal from rich people, it's not necessarily they need the money. It's just like they enjoy cheating other people. Okay. All right.
Uh count of 23.
Count 23. Silent alone, no one escorting us. We made our way. One went before, one after, as friars's minor when they walked together. The press and frackus made me think of Esau, that fable where he tells about the mouse and frog.
For near and I are not more close than are that fable in this incident, if you compare with care how each begins, and then compare the endings that they share. And even as one thought springs from another, so out of that was still another born which made the fear I felt before red double.
Okay. Sorry. Um c can you google as fable of the frog and the horse? Okay. I I I don't have it I don't have it remembered.
Okay. So uh frog and horse. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Frogen
74:32mouse. Yes. Yes. Okay. So So can you can you read it for for everyone?
Yeah. Story summary of uh Esop's frog and mouse. Mouse first asks the frog for helping help with crossing a river to visit the frog's home. The frog agrees but ties the mouse's leg to his own with a reed for safety. Halfway across the frog, motivated by by greed for the mouse's food, tries to drown the mouse by diving down the surface.
Um, the mouse's dead body floats to the surface, still tied to fl to the frog. A hawk sees the floating mouse, swoops down and carries off both the mouse and the frog. So, I guess the frog um being treacherous ends up being um prey as well for the hawk.
Sure. Okay. So, this applies to the demons, right? The demons mean to uh swindle Don and Virgil, cheat him, but they get greedy. They want to catch more sinners, so they fall in their own trap.
Okay. So, yeah. Okay. Uh, this one I'm going
line 13. I thought because of us they have been mocked and this inflicted so much hurt and scorn that I'm sure they feel deep indignation. If anger is to be added to their malice, they'll hunt us down with more ferocity than any hound whose teeth have trapped a hair. I could already feel my hair hair curl up from fear. And I looked back attentively while saying, "Master, if you don't conceal yourself in me at once, they terrify me.
Those melabbr they're after us. I so imagine them. I hear them now." And he to me, "Were I a leed mirror, I could not gather in your outer image more quickly than I have received your inner. For even now your thoughts have joined my own in both our acts and aspects. We are kin with both our minds.
I've come to one decision. If that right bank is not extremely steep, you we can descend into the other moat and so escape from the imagined chase. He'd hardly finished telling hit me his
76:33plan when I saw them approach with outstretched wings not too far of keen on taking us. My guide snatched me up instantly just as the mother who's waken from war and catch a sight of blazing flames beside her will lift her son and run without a stop. She cares more for the child than for herself. not pausing even to throw on a shift. And down the hard embankments edge, his back lay flat along the sloping rock that closed one side of the adjacent moat.
He slid. No water ever ran so fast along a slle to turn the wheels of a landmill. Not even when its flow approached the paddles, as said my master race down that embankment while bearing me with him upon his chest, just like a son and not like a companion. His feet has scarcely reached the bed that lies along the deep below them. Those 10 demons were on the edge above us.
But there was nothing to fear. For that high providence that wilt the ministers of the fifth ditch denies all of them the power to leave it.
Okay, so this is almost like a Hollywood movie now, right? It's it's it's a chase scene where Dante and Virgil are trying to escape the demons. the demons are chasing them and um [clears throat] there's a door that's closing and they at the last minute are able to um run for the door into safety and the door closes on the demons. Okay, so this is almost like a Hollywood uh chase scene. Why is Tony writing this?
I mean, it's gratuitous because God has already willed Dante to go to heaven, right? So, obviously, the demons can't actually do anything to them. They're protected by God. So, why is Donnie actually running the scene? Yes.
Maybe to show comradeship or something.
Yeah. Yeah. It's meant to make us understand and appreciate the growing relationship between Virgil and Dante, right? Because this is this is like basically character building. It's it's
78:34meant to develop for us and help us understand the intimacy between Dante and and Virgil, right? Um, an example is let's just say you have two enemies, right? And they hate each other. Well, I guarantee you if you if you were to dump these two guys who hate each other, who want to kill each other on a on a deserted island, they become best friends afterwards, right? So, so that that that's the idea here.
So even though they are rivals ultimately this journey will make them into best friends. Okay I keep on going. Below that point we found a painted people who moved about the lagging steps in circles weeping with features tired and defeated and they were dressed in cloaks with cows so low they fell before their eyes of that same cut that used to make the clothes for Clooney's monks outside these cloaks were gilded and they dazzled but inside there were all of lead so heavy that Frederick's capes were straw compared to them a tiring mantle for eternity we turned turn again is always to the left along with them intent on their sad weeping. But with their weights that weary people paced so slowly that we found ourselves among new company each time we took a step at which I told my guide, "Please try to find someone whose name or deed I recognized, and while we walked, be watchful with your eyes." And one who taken in my tuskcen speech cried out behind us, "Stay your steps, oh you who hurry so along the starkened air. Perhaps you'll have from me that which you seek, at which my guide turned to me, saying, "Wait, and then continue following his pace." I stopped, and I saw two whose faces showed their minds were keen to be with one.
Both their loath and the tight path forced them to slow. When they came up, they looked a sconce at me a long while, and they uttered not a word until they turned to one another, saying, "The throbbing of his throat makes this seem this one seem
80:34alive. And if they're dead, what privilege lets them appear without the heavy mantle? Then they addressed me, "Tuscen, you who come to this assembly of sad hypocrites, do not disdain to tell us who you are." I answered, "Where the lovely Arnold flows, there I was born and raised in the great city. I'm with the body I have always had. But who are you upon whose cheeks I see such tears distilled by grief?
and let me know what punishment it is that glitters so." And one of them replied, "The yellow cloaks are of a lead so thick their heaviness makes us the balances beneath them creek. We both were jovial friars and Bolognese. My name is Catalano Loringo was his and we were chosen by your city together for the post that's usually one man's to keep the peace and what we were is still to be observed around Gardingo." I then began, "Oh friars, your your misdeeds," but said no more, because my eyes had caught once one crucified by three stakes on the ground. When he saw me, that sinner writhed all over, and he breathed hard into his beard with size, observing that fraat said to me, "That one impaled there whom you see counseledled the Pharisees that it was prudent to let one man and not one nation suffer. naked he has been stretched across the path as you can see and he must feel the weight of anyone who passes over him like torment in this ditch afflicts both his father-in-law and others in that council which for the Jews has seated so much evil.
Okay, so this is Caiaphas who is uh the Pharisee uh the high priest who condemned Jesus to to death. Okay. And so for his punishment, he is crucified to the ground and everyone just walks on him. This is the area of the hypocrites. And the hypocrites are punished by wearing
82:34cloaks of lead. So like their movement is like really really slow. Okay? They're burdened by these cloaks of lead. So let's think about this.
Why what is hypocrisy? And why would you be punished walking all of eternity with cloaks of lead that are very heavy, so heavy that it it hurts to walk? What is hypocrisy? Why do people engage in it? [snorts]
Yes.
It is basically saying one thing and doing another. So you're pretending to be better than you are. So you put off this mask,
right? And and and why do you do it?
To show that you're better than others. That you are airy and kind of like ah I'm better than everybody else. I'm more religious.
Okay. So what you're saying is that hypocrites their words have no meaning and their words can change at any time and they are not responsive to they're not responsible to their words. Right. So why do they do it? Yes.
I think they're cheating. They just pretend to be a higher moral stuff just try to on the one hand get a benefit from that and on the other they will try to cheat others so that they'll get get more and they don't need to be punished and they just hide themselves from uh yeah okay well let's say you're a teacher okay you're telling your students [clears throat] okay we need to work hard and uh read a lot of books and exercise, okay? And then your students like a year later, they don't do anything, but they're like, you know, like we we want to we we want to work hard and exercise and read a lot of books. Why do they do that? H to to please me, right?
And so why would
84:34they do that?
Yeah. What's the motivation?
To benefit from like to pretend that you're better than who you actually are and then you're very empty on the interior and then the ultimate goal is to like get benefits by kind of like pretending to be like a better person.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Uh yes.
And then so you're basically um you have to wear all those lies on yourself on your consciousness like you're like consciously because you know you're not actually doing what you're saying. Now all these things that you didn't do but you say you did they wear on you basically.
Yeah. So like before you there was nothing holding you down, right? You could say whatever you want, you can do whatever you want. you just choose to do it in order just to get by. Right now, now um you're you're now you're being punished with this cloak of lead.
Okay. So, does that make sense? Okay. Good. All right.
Let's let's keep going. Line 124. Then I saw Virgil stand amazed above that one who lay stretched out upon a cross so squadly in his eternal exile. and he addressed the frier in this way. If it does not displease you, if you may, tell us if there's some passage on the right that would allow the two of us to leave without our having to compel black angels to travel to the steep to get us out.
He answered, "Closer than you hope, you'll find a rocky ridge that stretches from the great round wall and crosses all the savage valleys. Except that here it's broken, not a bridge. But where it ruined slope along the bank and heap up at the bottom, you can climb. My leader stood a while with his head bent then said, "He who hooked sinners over
86:34there gave us a false account of this affair."
So Virgil know. So Virgil recognized he's been lied to. Okay. Like duh, right? Uh, keep on going.
At which the frier in Bolognia I once heard about the devil's many vices. They said he was a liar and a father of lies. And then my guide moved on with giant stride, somewhat disturbed, with anger in his eyes. At this I left those overburdened spirits while following the prince of his dear feet.
So why would you trust the devil? What could lead someone to trust the devil?
Pride, right? Does that make sense? I Is there a Christian saying saying about this? No. Okay.
All right. All right. Well, well, yeah. All right, let's let's let's keep on going.
Conto 24. In that part of the young year, when the sun begins to warm its locks beneath Aquarius and nights grow shorter, equaling the days, when horrost mimes, the image of his white sister upon the ground, but not for long, because the pen he uses is not sharp. The farmer who is short of fodder rises and looks and sees the fields all white at which he slaps his thigh turns back into the house and hear and there complaints like some poor wretch who doesn't know what can be done and then goes out again and gathers up new hope on seeing that the world have changed has changed its face in so few hours and he takes his staff and hurries out his flock of sheep to pasture. So did my master fill me with dismay when I saw how his brow was deeply troubled. Yet then the plaster soothed the sore as quickly.
For soon as we were on the broken bridge, my guide turned back to me with that sweet manner I first had seen along the mountain space. And he examined carefully the ruin that having picked the way we would ascend, he opened his arms and thrust me forward. And just as he who pers as he
88:35labors, who's always ready for the step ahead, so as he lifted me up toward the summit of one great crag, he'd see another spur, saying, "That is the one you will grip next, but try at it first to see if it is firm." That has no path for those with cloaks of lead. For he and I, he liked, I would support, could hardly make it up from spur to spur. And were it not that down from this enclosure the slope was shorter than the bank before, I cannot speak for him, but I should surely have been defeated. But since Malibul runs right into the mouth of its last well, the placement of each valley means it must have one bank high and half the other short. So, and so we reached at length the jutting where the last stone of the ruined bridge breaks off.
The breath within my lungs was so exhausted from climbing, I could not go on. In fact, as soon as I had reached that sore, I sat. Stone I sat. Now you must cast aside your laziness, my master said. For he who rests on down on or undercovers cannot come to fame.
And he who spends his life without renown leaves such a vestage of himself on earth as smoke bequetss to air or foam to water. Therefore, get up. Defeat your breathlessness with spirit that can win all battles if the body's heaviness does not deter it. A longer ladder still is to be climbed. It's not enough to have left them behind.
If you have understood, now profit from it.
Okay? [clears throat] I'm sure that you might have had a teacher. Okay? Um, some of you might have had a teacher who has inspired you to greatness. And what your teacher said to you is the reason why we are memorizing tests for like eight hours a day is to aspire to greatness, right?
We suffer for 12 years. We lose our soul. We lose our individuality. But
90:35at the end of it, we will obtain immortality because we'll get into like Chinua or Harvard or Yale. And then we'll be great. Okay. What do you think of of a teacher like that? There's there's quite quite a few teachers like that in China.
But but what's your impression of a teacher like that? I mean, he's not wrong, right? He or she's not wrong. And there are lots of students who are able to get into Chinua or Bea or Y or Harvard because of a teacher like that. But how do you feel about about a teacher like that?
Have you had a teacher teacher like that? And like what's your impression? Yeah. Yes.
Yeah. Because as a teacher you have to do a job well and there's no teacher who said to students come on don't study it's useless right. Teacher always that you have to study better harder so that you will get more benefit. You know the sweet always come from come after the bitterness. Right.
So, uh, yes,
I literally just said that to my students like last week and I say to them all the time like, "Honey, you'll get like six years of hell or 60 years of hell." And they were like, "Just six years." I'm like, "Okay, now work hard for the next six years in your middle school so you can get to a good, you know, undergraduate school, uh, college so that you can have more happiness, I guess, in the future."
And I'm sure a lot of your students have succeeded, right? They've gone to like really top universities.
They do better. Yeah.
Right. right?
Um achieve their full potential I suppose.
Right. But but but but let's hear some other perspectives. Right. You're a teacher, right? And you said that.
Uh yes.
So back then I thought it was like completely normal and it it is what I should be taught because of meritocracy. But right now, I feel like we are just kind of in like an endless trap because after high school, you'll be told that, okay, you'll just have to work hard for
92:36four years and then you'll get into like a good grad school or like you'll get a good job. I feel like it's just kind of like a endless circle. And I feel like it's more of like the teachers are unccapable of motivating their students to like um have like an inner drive to study hard so that they're teaching these sorts of ideas onto their students.
Do you do do you agree with w with that?
No. because I actually do believe in this narrative um of if you work hard, you go to a good school, you actually have a better chance of getting into like top banking, you know, or whatever jobs that you want because they do filter your first degree, right? And so I I actually do believe in this narrative. Um I think it's very Puritan, very biblical. So the Paul is always saying let's you know strive for the goal that you are you know so you live your good life so you get your reward in heaven.
It's kind of the same narrative.
Okay. Right. Um
um I use if a teacher tells me that I know how much effort I need to put for their class because I mean I mean this in the sense that if a teacher is really good at teaching and really has a love for their subject in classes what they say is oh my god guys chemistry is so amazing. It's so interesting and it really piqus my passion. So for that class, I put in the extra effort and I understand that that teacher understands my passion for the subject. But if a teacher tells me, you just need to do this uh to to get to a good college, I know like that class, I'm not going to really learn anything. So, I'm just going to put the amount of effort that's needed for me to get an A and just so like I guess for me um my understanding of um education is not to you know get that job.
it's to you know better yourself and also learning is fun
but if the teachers don't understand and take that perspective I can't really convince them that so it just um
94:39okay we we understand thank you uh yes
yeah I think it's just not really about the aspect of hard work I think yes obviously you need to do work hard but it's more about the motivation behind it and it's easier if you're motivated obviously to learn something that you're interested in. So if the teacher tells you like she said, you know, you need to do this or like I will teach this in a way that it makes it harder for you because you won't like it or I'm going to teach this in a way that you will like it and obviously it's easier to study
and so it's more about the motivation.
Okay. Yes. I think log logically it makes uh sense this way of teaching but it it just assumes that this is the only important thing in life because you could get say a teacher who says well don't worry too much but focus on you know your soul your spirit and you know be happy with your life and then you get two different adults. You get one who's working in banking, earning a lot of money, but anti-depressants, not happy with their life. And then you get one who didn't, you know, work that hard, didn't make it to that college, but maybe they still had a family and they're happy.
Yes. Okay. Thank you. Yes.
I see this narrative as a way of blinding yourself for better outcomes. Same as like a horse can have the thing on the side just to move faster. So, you don't really see why you're doing it, but it's just a way to have better outcomes. So you're like, "Okay, let me blind myself for the next like 3 years and I know that when I open my eyes, it's going to be just better."
Okay. Thank you. Yes.
Uh it is a white lie that has been perpetuated from generation to generation. Uh it is um I think it is the purpose of the white lie that is more important than the content and truthfulness. It is uh sometimes comparable to a beautiful wrapping of a gift. You know, it's it might be a just a wrapping, but when you unpack it, you you still want to, you know, look at the beautiful
96:39wrapping and uh appreciate uh but uh it really depend on uh the audience. uh uh a bad audience uh might uh you know uh be obsessed with it and uh and might have some you know very tragic result.
Okay, good. Uh yes,
I think the problem with education especially public school education in China is that the pe the students don't know why they're learning. They think the reason why they are learning is because they need to do it to get to a good high school to get to a good college to get to a good job. But that's like the most boring reason for why you learn. Like if teachers taught students why you learn is because it's fun and it's interesting and it's it's amazing and it's it's actually very it's like if you actually teach people why learning is fun and interesting then therefore students realize that like in life they don't need to work towards a goal. They can just you know strive towards enjoying the journey.
Okay. Yeah. Well, it's a great discussion, but but but you you you have the last word. Okay, then we'll continue. Yes.
Okay. Yes.
Sorry, I had to put out the counter argument that um if we prime education to be something fun, of self-discovery, of passion and love, you'll realize that learning is antihuman just like exercising like in a way it is you know it is good for you but you know to eat salad every day and to exercise be an athlete you know be a great achiever would take pain would take a bit of you know suffering. So when everything is fund driven and passion driven what if you have passion for chemistry but not for physics or like the teacher try to invoke passion in you but it's hard because you you are just a chemistry person not physics or not math or Chinese you know language arts person then you will lose like oh then you know physic uh chemistry is my you know passion and that's the only thing I'm going to learn well then the rest of it it's like whatever then I think it's a better to have a narrative like yeah the other subjects are not as fun but
98:39they're equally as important for your future to you Yeah. So, just for some context for those who are watching on the live stream who do not know the Chinese system, uh the Chinese system, it at the end of high school, everyone takes a comprehensive examination that tests six subjects. So, you can have a great love of math, but if you don't do well in English, you're really really screwed. Okay? It's comprehensive.
So, it's not just about passion. It's about like discipline. You have to like do well on all six subjects. Okay? So, let's continue.
Okay? Now, what Virgil says to Dante is cast aside your laziness because what what we're trying to achieve is eternal fame. If you want to be the greatest poet in the world, you have to work a lot harder. What could Virgil say instead to motivate Dante? And it' be a lot more effective, by the way.
Exactly right. What is Dante doing right now? Right? He's trying to get to Beatric. Beatric came to Virgil and says like, I I want to see Dante again.
Bring him to me. Right? That is what Virgil's mission is to take Dante to Beatric. Right? So, what Virgil should be saying to Dante is Petus is waiting for us.
Let's get there as soon as possible. And that's going to motivate uh Beatric D a lot more than like, hey, everlasting fame, man. That's what we want. Okay. So, it shows you psychology, the virtual psychology.
Okay. And that and that's why this is a great work of literature because Virgil is a real person, right? He's just he's not just a plot device. He has his own motivations. He has his own psychology.
He has has his own worldview. All right. All right. Uh let's keep on going.
Line 58. Then I arose and showed myself far better equipped with breath than I had been before. Go on, for I am strong and confident. We took our upward way upon the ridge with crags more jagged,
100:40narrow, difficult, and much more steep than we had crossed before. I spoke as we went on, not to seem weak at this. A voice came from the ditch beyond. A voice that was not suited to form words. I know not what he said, although I was already at the summit of the bridge that crosses there, and yet he seemed to move.
I bent that I had bent downward but my living eyes cannot see the bottom through that dark at which I said oh master can we reach the other belt let us descend the wall for as I hear and cannot understand so I see down but can distinguish nothing. The only answer that I give to you is doing it. He said a just request is to be met in silence by the by the act. We then climb down the bridge just at the end where it runs right into the eighth embankment. And now the moat was plain enough to me.
And there within I saw a dreadful swarm of serpents so extravagant in form. Remembering them still drains my blood from me. Let Libya boast no more about her sands. For if she breathed kelly, jaculi shankers with empisbina parade. She never showed with all of Ethiopia or all the land that borders the Red Sea so many such malignant pestilences.
Among this cruel and depressing swarm ran people who were naked, terrified with no hope of a hole or helotrope. Their hands were tied behind by serpent. These had thrust their head and tail right through the loin and then were knotted on the other side. And there a serpent sprang with force at one who stood upon our shore transfixing him just where the neck and shoulders from a knot. No o or I has ever been transcribed so quickly as that soul caught fire and burned and as he fell completely turned to ashes.
And when he lay undone upon the ground, the dust of him collected by itself and instantly returned to what it was. Just so it is asserted by great sages that when it reaches its 500th year, the phoenix dies
102:41and then is born again. lifelong. It never feeds on grass or grain, only on drops of incense and amum. Its final winding sheets are nard and myrr. And just as he who falls and knows not how, by demons force that drags him to the ground, or by some other hindrance that binds man, who when he rises stares about him, all bewildered by the heavy anguish he has suffered, sighing as he looks around, so did the sinner stare when he arose.
Oh, how severe it is the power of God that as its vengeance vengeance showers down such bloat. My guide then asked that sinner who he was. To this he answered, "Not long since I reigned from Tuskanyany into this savage mall knew that I was the beastial life pleased me and not the man. I'm Vani fu chief beast and the den that suited me Pistoya and I to Virgil tell him not to slip away and ask what sin has thrust him here. I knew him as a man of blood and anger." The sinner heard and did not try to faint but turned his mind and face intent toward me and coloring with miserable miserable shame.
He said, "I suffer more because you've caught me in this the misery you see than I suffered when taken from the other life. I can't refuse to answer what you ask. I'm set down so far because I robbed the sacry of its fair ornaments and someone else was falsely blamed for that." But lest the sight give you too much delight, if you can ever leave these lands of darkness, open your ears to my announcement here. Bistoa first will strip herself of black, and Florence will renew her men and manners. From Maldi, Margaret Mars will draw a vapor which turpet clouds will try to wrap.
The clash between them will be fierce, impetuous. A tempest fought upon Compo Paciano until that vapor, vicorous,
104:41vigorous shall crack the mist and every white be struck by it. And I have told you this to make you grieve.
Okay. All right. So, we are pretty far down inferno. And here um in the circle of fraud, we now meet thieves. Okay.
Can I ask you a question? I mean, like, we've we've been through um Inferno. We were in the circle of violence. We met people like Axon the Great. Uh and yeah, you can com you can make the argument that Axon the Great is a terrible terrible person because he commits genocide against a lot of people.
Okay? Uh and he started wars for no real reason except for his own glory. um Darius the uh king of Persia offered him many many bribes in order to not stop to not stop fighting and his man told him like let's just take the bribes okay yet at the same time this thief um he's a lot lower in inferno than a great conqueror like the great who killed a lot of people why is thievery so bad. Why Why is thievery so evil as it warrants such a low status in in hell, right? And also like if someone's stealing, it's often because maybe they need the money, right?
I maybe if my child is hungry, I'm going to go steal some something from other people, right? Have you guys seen the movie The Bicycle Thief? A very good Italian movie, right? And if you haven't, it's a really good movie, but it's just this guy who's a
106:41very normal guy. This is like postwar Italy, absolutely no money, and he has to feed his kid. So he go steals a bicycle and then he's you know becomes a villain and society around him. So why is thievery such a sin? Yes.
I think in like the biblical terms the the 10 sins the greatest 10 sins you can commit um was like the first few was against God like using God's name in vain and have other gods and all that. And then the rest was like do not commit adultery, do not lie, do not s like steal, do not cover. Uh but all of these the rest of the five sins were all summarized into covering which is taking others things like taking other's wife is adultery you know lying to others is taking the truth away and then there were other things so it was all summarized into thief or
so it was not a big deal right because like the the one the one is like do not you know um worship other idols do not
yeah the first few was about against God
and those are really bad right but like adultery and like
it was like all Yeah. But the principle behind adultery and all the other things will all summarize into
right. Right. So so so in the the ten commandments there's this hierarchy, right?
Yeah. So it's so like so like stealing is actually pretty low whereas here in inferno it's actually pretty serious. Right. So that that's a paradox. Yeah.
Yes. Did did you raise your hand? Okay. All right. Right.
Do you understand there's a paradox here? Why is killing a lot of people not as bad as stealing from one person? Right? And and the crime the the sin was this guy he steals from a church and then someone else was blamed for it. He got away and then uh he burned in hell, right?
So he stole, someone else was blamed and now he's burning in hell. And the punishment is like they all get bitten by snakes and then they die and
108:41then they resurrect and they get bitten by more snakes. Right? So this is a paradox for us. Uh yes. One reason you know in criminology or in law and economics uh you know the punishment is sometimes uh measured uh or punishment uh is calculated partially by the um the the ability of the society to find the crime.
If a crime is very hard to find to be observed then the the punishment must be multiplied by the factor of this hiddenenness. So savory uh and all this uh fraud is more uh uh daming or more more uh difficult more difficult to be to be fined by open killing killing or other uh crimes against humanity. Although it's is a higher crime, it is uh easy to be to be discerned by the Zuts if there is Zuts.
Okay. Okay. Okay, that makes sense. But God knows everything, right? So you can't you can never hide your crime from God.
Uh yes. Yes. I wonder if uh I haven't done any research on on natural law and what Aristotle or Aristotle or or um Augustine would say about it, but animals animals kill, animals rape each other. Animals though don't put up with animals stealing from one another. They will like they will find a sense of harmony.
So I wonder if it goes not against just god laws, but it goes against natural laws as well.
That's a very good point. Okay. Like animals take stealing very very seriously. They're very they're very protective of their own property. Yes.
Okay. Uh yes.
Because thievery affects uh the person who's been thieved capacity to love and trust uh in the future. Like maybe for example,
110:42say you're a very generous person. Usually you leave used to leave your house open and then you get robbed one time. Then you're going to be very suspicious of all your neighbors. uh you're going to lock all your doors and if you extrapolate this on societywide it kills kind of kills society.
Yes. Does that make sense to you? Okay. The problem with thievery is not the stealing. The fact is that it's so no one knows who did it.
So then you you have to like suspect everyone, right? The problem is not that he stole and it's not even like what he stole. The problem is like he got away with it. That's why thieves are worse than everyone else because they often get away with it. It's so secretive.
It's so shadowy. Like it no one knows who did it, right? I guess.
But it didn't you just say that God knows everything,
right? And God will punish you for it. But I'm saying like what what is effect on society?
Okay. Yeah. But it's not a sin against God then. or it's not it's not a direct sin against God. It's a sin against society,
right? But for Dante, um society is what enables us to truly love God. Okay? So without society, we we we couldn't actually function. Okay?
Does that make sense? So what matters is, you know, to live a life of faith, hope, and love. And you can only do that in society, right? You can't do that by yourself. You can't.
So, so the society, the social fabric is what's important. It must hold together. That's the logic here. Does that make sense? Okay.
All right. Uh, yes.
Yeah. And I also feel like while the thieves are like deceiving the others through like stealing, they're also kind of like deceiving themselves. For example, like you mentioned earlier, what if they are poor and they're unccapable of like um for example, feeding their kid. I feel like with the
112:44act of stealing, they're also like kind of like um finding like forgiving themselves for not reaching their full potential because there are definitely other ways for them to like get through the problem.
Okay. Yeah. So again, the punishment is these guys, these thieves are being bitten by snakes, right? which kills them. Well, that's a metaphor for what they do in society, right?
The there are snakes. No one no one can see them. Um they're very slippery and they just steal from other people. But what they don't recognize is that it's a sting on people. It's something that um imprints itself on people and people can never forget it and it makes them, as you point out, just constantly thinking about who stole this, right?
And then what they're going to do is they're often going to blame someone else and it's gonna be the wrong person, right? So that's and and the metaphor is the snake bite, right? A venomous treacherous snake. Okay. Yes.
Yeah. I agree with your professor because uh in in Genesis, right, the ea there's Adam just steal the wisdom fruit, right, from the from the tree. So I think that is why the god feel really angry about them try to condemn them. That's a good point, right?
The snake appears in the serpent appears in um Genesis. This cannot be a coincidence,
right? It's clearly referring to first society, one of trust between God and Adam and Eve, and the snake convinced them to uh disobey God and break that trust, that bond between God. Okay, clearly there's a reference to Genesis here. Okay, great. Okay, let's uh Yes.
Um, I noticed like in line 108 the resurrection of the sinners is compared to the phoenix, but I thought the phoenix is like a quite positive metaphor. So I wonder why sinners are
114:46compared to phoenix.
Um, so in poetry we use a lot of metaphors and simileies. It's not really about what's positive, what's negative. It's really about showing you visually what's going on, right? So, so the idea is the visual depiction of rising from the ashes, right? You're killed, but then you rise again and then the snake bites you again.
And it's kind of silly because like you already know like you've been through this a million times, but the snake is always able to sneak up on you and kill you. Okay. So, so it's a metaphor. Um, and it's and it doesn't doesn't really care of it a judgment. All right.
Uh, let's keep on uh reading. Inferno Kto 25. When he had finished with his words, the thief raised high his fists with both figs coughed and cried, "Take that, oh God, I square them off for you. From that time on those serpents were my friends, for one of them coiled them around his neck as if to say, "I'll have you speak no more." Another wound about about his arms and bound him again and wrapped itself in front so firmly he could not even make them budge an inch.
Why does he hate God so much? He curses God, right? And he's actually the only person we seen in front of that curses God, right? Why?
Yes.
So, we said before that the effects of thievery are so big on society, but it's it's kind of one of those crimes that if you're the one doing the thievery, maybe to you it doesn't seem that bad. So, you might feel that you're being unjustly uh punished,
right? Okay. Um, why don't you think
116:46it's a bad thing or
It's not that you think don't think it's a bad thing, but how you when you do it, you probably don't realize how bad it is. Like we've had the examples before about like the Robin Hood kind of analogy of, you know, you just take the bike or something like that. So, you don't think it's that bad, but then you realize in the inferno you're in such a bad place,
right? So, so let's feel this, okay? He steals a lot of things from the church and someone else is blamed, right? When someone else is blamed, how does he feel? How how would he feel?
Guilty. You'd feel at least bad for the other person.
He's pretty ecstatic, man. Okay. Right. Because not only has he gotten away with it, but now he's completely innocent.
Do you understand? So he's like, "The perfect crime." And who screwed it? Who screwed it up for him?
God.
God screwed up for him. Okay. So now he's pissed about this. He's like, "Oh my god, I had it all planned out. It was a perfect crime.
Um, and I thought that I I'd get away with it." And then God had to intervene. Okay. So he's really angry about this. Okay? Does that make sense?
All right. So we'll continue after the break. Um but an announcement um is that on Thursday we start class earlier. We start class at 9 o'clock. Okay?
So try to come at about 8:50. And the reason why is we have a special guest joining us uh Professor David Brahmich who is starting professor of English at Yale. He's joining us live from New Haven. It's a real treat for for us. It'll be live streamed to to everyone.
Um and what he's going to do is he's going to talk about Shakespeare and then we're going to talk about Dante. We're going to compare and contrast Shakespeare with Dante. Okay. So, um he's obviously one
118:46of the world's foremost experts on Shakespeare and we are obviously one obviously experts on Dante already. So, it'll be a very lively discussion. Okay. So, something something that'll be really fun. Uh so, please come about 8:50.
We'll start at 9:00 promptly and we'll go for for about an hour. Okay. So, um Yep. Yep.
So, then are we doing like a Three hour morning or
Yeah, three-hour morning. That's great.
Yeah. Okay. All right. All right, guys. En enjoy your lunch.
We'll come back. Okay. After the break.
Okay. Um good afternoon.
All right. So, I want to clarify um an issue that we had this morning, which is why is thievery much worse a sin than genocide? Okay. Okay. An example is you have Axen the Great who for his own vanity and glory he decides to go conquer the Persian Empire.
In the process he kills millions of people. Okay, at least a million, possibly 10 million. Um, so a million dies and then you have a thief who steals a holy relic and then someone else is blamed. Okay. And as we discussed what this does is it destroys trust and cohesion in the community.
Okay. But still even if this was a large community it would only about be a thousand people. Okay. It would only be about a thousand people. So we have this strange paradox where for Dante uh the thief by impacting a thousand people it's a worse sin than accident the great killing a million people.
Okay. And how do we reconcile this paradox? And that's why it's important to read paradise first because without reading paradise it is impossible to reconcile this paradox. There are certain aspects here that um explain uh the difference. First is the idea of immortality of the soul and this
120:47something that Beatatric will tell Dante that the soul um is immortal. It's eternal. It can never die off. If your body dies off, your soul will still be around. Then uh what we also learn is that the soul aspires to return to God.
Okay. The soul, its greatest desire, it greatest happiness is to be with God. All right. The soul returns to God. We also learn that what allows us to return to God is the idea of faith, hope, and love.
Okay. All right. So once you understand these three principles, then it's then we can understand how this works. The million people die. It's not a big deal.
They lose their bodies. to come back later on. But there's a thousand people who uh feel betrayed, who are suspicious of each other. It is now impossible for them to live a life of faith, hope, and love. And in fact, it will probably um make them more likely to sin.
Okay? So now they're moving away from God. Okay? So um it's not the absolute numbers that matter. It's how people choose to live their lives that matter.
And the sin, the worst possible sin is treachery in a way that uh forces other people to commit treachery as well. All right? To force you away from God. Does this make sense, guys? Okay.
All right. Okay. Let's let's continue. Kanto 25 um verse let's see 10 pistoa a pisto must you last why not decree yourself incineration since you surpass your seed and wickedness
122:48throughout the shadowed circles of deep hell I saw no soul against God so re rebel not even he who fell from thieven walls he fled and could not say another word and And I saw a centur full of anger shouting, "Where is he? Where's that bitter one?" I do not think MMA has the number of snakes that centur carried on his hunch until the part that takes our human form. Upon his shoulders, and behind his nape there lay a dragon with its wings outstretched. It sets ablaze all those it intercepts. My master said that centaur there is cacas who often made a lake of blood within a grotto underneath Mount Aventine.
He does not ride the same road as his brothers because he stole and most deceitfully from the great herd nearby. His crooked deeds his crooked deeds ended beneath the club of Hercules who may have given him a hundred blows but he was not alive to feel the tenth. While he was talking, so Cacus ran by, and just beneath our ledge, three souls arrived. But neither I nor my guide noticed them until they had cried out, "And who are you?" At this the words we shared were interrupted, and we attended only to those spirits. I did not recognize them, but it happened as chance will usually bring about that one of them called out the other's name.
Exclaiming where was Chianfa left behind at this so that my guide might be alert, I raised my finger up from chin to nose. If reader, you're slow now to believe what I shall tell, that is no cause for wonder, for I who saw it hardly can accept it. As I kept my eyes fixed upon those sinners, a serpent with six feet springs out against one of the three and clutches him completely. It gripped his belly with his middle feet and with its four feet grappled his two arms, and then it sank its teeth in both it his his cheeks. It stretched its
124:49rear feet out along his thighs and ran its tail long between the two, then straightened it again behind his loins. No ivy ever gripped a tree so fast as when that horrifying monster clasped and intertwined the other's limbs with its. Then, just as their substance were warm wax, they struck they stuck together, and they mixed their colors. So neither seemed what had been seen before, he had been before. Just as when papers kindled where it still has not caught flame in full, its colors dark though not yet black while white is dying off.
The other two souls stared and each one cried. A me and yellow how you change just see you're already neither two nor one. Then two heads were already joined in one. When in one face where two had been dissolved, two intermingled shapes appeared to us. Two arms came into being from four lengths.
The thighs and legs, the belly, and the chest became such limbs as never had been seen. And every former shape was canceled there. That perverse image seemed to share in both. And none and so and slowly it moved on. Just as the lizard when it darts from hedge to hedge beneath the dog's stad's giant lash seems if it cross one's path a lightning flesh.
So seemed a blazing little serpent moving against the bellies of the other two as black as and livid as a peppercorn. Attacking one of the it pierced right through the part where we first take our nourishment and then it fell before him at full length. The one it had transfixed stared but said nothing. In fact, he only stood his ground and yawned as one whom sleep or fever has undone. The serpent stared at him, he at the serpent, one through his wound, the other through his mouth were smoking violently their smoke met.
Let Lukan now be silent where he sings of sad Zabilis and Acidius and wait to hear what flies off from my bow. Let of
126:51it now be silent where he tells of Katmas Arathusa if his verse had made of one a serpent one a fountain. I do not envy him. He never did transmute two natures face to face so that both forms were ready were ready to exchange their matter. These were the ways they answered to each other. The serpent split its tail into a fork.
The wounded sinner drew his steps together. the legs and then the thighs along with them so fastened to each other that the juncture soon left no sign that was discernable. Meanwhile, the cleft tail took upon itself the form the other gradually lost. Its skin grew soft, the other's skin grew hard. I saw the arms that drew in at its armpits and also saw the monster's two short feet grow long for just as much as those were shortened.
The serpent's hind feet twisted up together became the member that man hides just as the regret put out two hind pods from his member. And while the smoke veils each with a new color and now breeds hair upon the skin of one, just as it strips the hair from off the other, the one rose up, the other fell, and they never turned aside their impious eye lamps beneath which each of them transformed his snout. He who stood up drew his back toward the temples, and from the excess matter growing there came years upon the cheeks that had been bare. Whatever had not been pulled back, but kept superfluous, then made his face and nose, and thickened out his lips appropriately. He who was lying down thrust out his snout, and even as the snail hauls its horns and its horns, he drew his ear straight back into his head.
His tongue, which had before been whole and fit for speech, now cleaves. The other's tongue, which had been forked, now closes up, and the smoke stops. The soul that had become an animal, now hissing, hurried
128:51off along the valley. The other one behind him speaks and spits. And then he turned aside his new maid shoulders and told the third soul, "I'd have buaso run on all fours down this road as I have done." And so I saw the seven ballots change and rechange. May the strangeness plead for me if there has been some confusion in my pen. And though my eyes were somewhat blurred, my mind bewildered, those three sinners did not flee so secretly that I could not perceive Pucho Jankato clearly.
He who was the only soul who had not been changed among the three companions we had first met at first, we had met at first. The other one made you gave grieve.
Okay. So um these sinners um are here because they committed identity theft. They're imposters. They pre pretend to be someone else. Okay?
It's like credit card credit card fraud. And um again, this goes back to the idea that um the lower we go, the more these people are destroying the trust of society and society's capacity to function cohesively. Okay? That's why they're being punished like this. The punishment is fitting because uh they're constantly being changed, right?
Snakes take over their bodies and then dissipates their soul. Then they're resurrected and then snakes take over their souls again. Okay. So um but what is unusual about this um KTO is Dante spends a lot of time in the description right uh Dante is usually very economical. He spends maybe a tursuit and then he moves on.
Here we have an entire conto talking about the metamorphosis. Why would he do that? And again, I don't actually know the answer. I'm just pointing this out, right? This is unusual for Dante.
He's usually very
130:51sunct, very economical, very tur, and now he's spending a lot of time going in detail over the metamorphosis. Why would he do that? Any speculations? Again, I don't know the answer. I I I mean like I just want to speculate any possibilities.
Uh maybe he want to contrast this with heaven where the scheme is granduous and uh extremely expensive and uh unlimited. Here he wants to go to the reverse to look at things uh in micro under microscope and uh to give you a sense of um uh you know depth or whatever you know give you a sense of restriction or the opposite of of heaven.
Okay that that's a possibility okay to create cont to great contrast. Yes. Any other possibilities? Yes. I think the depicting these u sinners metamorphosizing is um a reflection of them getting less and less human because of the sin they done.
Yes. Right. Any other possibilities? Yes. Maybe he's just trying to prove that he can write about metaphors as good as all of it can.
Yeah, that's a very interesting idea, right? Because there are certain poets that Dante admires or Virgil is definitely among the top. There's also OIT and Lucan. Okay. And he does mention OI and Lucan in this KTO.
So, you're right. Maybe he is trying to uh prove that he can just be as good as
132:54um uh ovid. Yes.
And also in the Bible, in the book of Revelations, which is the last book of the Bible, uh John wrote a lot of visions about what he saw about angels and you know the last day. So he maybe he's in kind of doing that same thing as well to show that I have divine intervention. And I have this vision about what's in hell, just like John had an idea of what's in heaven.
Excellent. Okay. Right. So, [clears throat] we're approaching Lucifer, right? We're approaching the inner core of Lucifer.
And maybe what he's trying to do is convey the sense of fear and dread, right? He's trying to evoke fear and dread in us because as we're as we're reading this, we visualize what's happening to this human becoming a serpent. And if you think about it, it's very hard um not to be afraid, right? This is like almost like a horror movie now, right? This metamorphosis.
I'm not sure if if you seen the movie The Fly, right? This where this guy turns into a fly. It's pretty disgusting. It's pretty scary. Don't don't watch it.
Um Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But but the idea of metamorphosis, right, that we can lose our human form and become some something else, that's actually very very scary. Uh, and it's hard to think of something even more scary than that idea.
And maybe he's using that in order to evoke a sense of fear and dread as we approach the inner sanctums of hell. Great. These are all great suggestions. Okay. All right.
Uh, let's keep on going. KTO 26. Be joyous, Florence. You're great indeed. For overseen land you beat your wings.
Through every part of hell your name extends. Among the thieves I found five citizens of yours, and such that shame has taken me. With them you can ascend to no high honor. But if the dreams dreamt close to dawn are true,
134:54then little time will pass before you feel what Praau and the others crave for you. Were that already come, it would not be too soon, and let it come since it must be as I grow older, it will be more heavy.
Okay. All right. So, [clears throat] here Dante is referenced the referencing the prophetic tradition. Okay. He is spelling doom for Florence.
He's like, Florence, you guys should be proud because you have more members of Florence in hell than anyone else. Okay? This is a great achievement and God's going to punish you. Okay. Um, keep on going.
Verse 10. Were that already come, it would not be too soon, and that it come since it must be. As I grow older, it will be more heavy. We left that deep and by protruding stones that served as stairs for our descent before my guide climbed up climbed up again and drew me forward. And as we took our solitary path among the ridges, jagged bursts and rocks, our feet our feet could not make way without our hands.
It grieved me then, and now greased me again when I direct my mind to what I saw. And more than usual, I curb my talent. That it not run where virtue does not guide, so that if my kind star or something better has given me that gift, I not abuse it. As many as the fireflies, the peasant while resting on a hillside in the season, when he who lights the world least hides its face, just when the fly gives way to the mosquito, sees glimmering below down the valley there, where perhaps he gathered grapes and tills. So many were the flames that glittered in the eighth abyss.
I made this out as soon as I had come to where one sees the bottom. Even as he who he who was avenged by bears saw as it left Elijah's chariot its horses rearing rising right to heaven when he could not keep track of it except by watching one lone flame and its ascent just like a little cloud that climbs on high. So through the gullet of that ditch each flame must make its way. No flame
136:56displays its prey, though every flame has carried off a sinner. I stood upon the bridge. I stood upon the bridge and leaned straight out to see. And if I had not gripped a rock, I should have fallen off without a push. My guide, who noted how intent I was, told me.
Within those fires there are souls, each one is swathed in which in that which scorches him. My master, I replied, on hearing you I'm more sure. But I'd already thought that it was so, and I had meant to ask, who is within the flame that comes so twinned twined above that it would seem to rise out of the pit itles shared with his brothers? He answered me, "Within that flame Ulisses and Damedes suffer. They who went as one to rage now share one punishment.
And there together in their flame they grieve over the horse's fraud that caused a breach. The gate that let Rome's noble seed escape. There they regret the guile that makes the dead the Demia still lament Achilles and therefore the palladium they they pay. If they can speak within those sparks I said I pray you and rep pray and master may my prayer be worth a thousand. Please do not forbid my waiting here until the flame with horns approaches us for you can see how out of my desire I bend toward it.
Okay, so um the D never read Homer. So he never read the Iliad in the Odyssey and so his conception of Ulisses comes from other writers. And um Ulisses he's he's imprisoned in a flame. Okay, he's being burned in a flame with Diamedes. And the reason why they're being punished is the two came up with the idea of the Trojan horse.
This treachery, this deception that allowed the Greeks to destroy uh the Trojans, forcing the Trojans to go to
138:58Rome to found the Roman uh empire. Okay. All right. Uh let's let's keep on going. Line 70.
Line 70. and he to me, "What you have asked is worthy of every praise. Therefore, I favor it. I only ask you this. Refrain from talking.
Let me address them. I have understood what you desire of them. Since they were Greek, perhaps they'd be disdainful of your speech." And when my guide had judged the flame, had reached a point where time and place were opportune. This was the form I heard his words assume. You two who move as one within the flame.
If I deserved of you while I still lived, if I deserved of you much or a little when in the world I wrote my noble lines, do not move on. Let one of you retell where, having gone astray, he found his death. The greater horn within that ancient flame began to sway and tremble, murmuring just like a fire that struggles in the wind. And then he waved his flame tip back and forth as if it were a tongue that tried to speak and flung toward us a voice that answered. When I sailed away from Cersei, who had begiled me to stay more than a year there near Gaata, before Anas gave that place a name, neither my fondness for my son, nor pity for my old father, nor the love I old Penelope, which would have gladdened her, was able to defeat in me the longing I had to gain experience of the world, and of the vices and the worth of men.
Therefore, I set out on the open sea with but one ship and that small company of those who never had deserted me. I saw as far as Spain, far as Morocco, along the both shores, I saw Sardinia and saw the other islands that sea bathes. And I and my companions were already old and slow. When we approached the narrows, where Hercules set up his boundary stones, that men might heed and never reach beyond. Upon my right I had gone past Sevilla and on the left
140:58already past Seuta. Brothers, I said, "Oh, you who have crossed 100,000 dangers, reached the west to this brief waking time that still is left unto your senses. You must not you must not deny experience of that which lies beyond the sun and of the world that is unpopled. Consider well the seed that gave you birth. You were not made to live your lives as brutes, but to be followers of worth and knowledge.
I spurred my comrades with this brief address to meet the journey with such eagerness that I could hardly then have held them back. And having turned our stern toward the morning, we made wings out of our orars in a wild flight, and always gain upon our left hand side. At night, I now could see the other pole in all its stars. The star of ours had fallen and never and never rose above the plane of the ocean. Five times the light beneath the moon had been rekindled.
And as many time was spent since that hard passage phased our first attempt, when there before us rose a mountain, dark because of distance, and it seemed to me the highest mountain I had ever seen, and we were glad. But this soon turned to sorrow, for out of that new land a whirlwind, a whirlwind rose and hammered at our ship against her bow. Three times it turned her around with all the waters. And at the fourth it lifted up the stern so that our prow plunged deep as pleased another until the sea again closed over us.
Okay, so um uh Virgil is asking Elysius, how did you die? Ulysius says said that I'm a wonderer. I'm an explorer. And I took my men and I and I rallied them and said that we are uh we are seeking knowledge. We are seeking uh new lands.
And this excited everyone. And we sailed as far as a mountain. This mountain is going to be purgatory. Okay. Uh we will
142:59be in purgatory after we finish Inferno. And then he sells off the um face of this earth. Right. he uh um they just die uh when they fall off the earth. So this is a paradox because weren't we told to live a life of faith, hope, and love?
And here um Ulyses, he is pursuing what he loves and he's exploring new lands and he's living a life of faith that there must be new knowledge out there for me to discover. Why would he be in hell? What is What did he do wrong? Uh yes. Um first he could be just like wanting to explore more without actually understanding what he's seeing.
And also about the mountain being purgatory. It could be a way of saying that if you avoid purgatory then you finish in like hell.
Interesting. Exactly. Yes. You try you try to um run away from and you end up in hell. Yeah, that's very interesting.
Yes. Anyone else? No, those are great ideas. But anyone else? Yes.
Um I'm guessing like if he's trying to know like all of the knowledge in the world, he's trying to be like God kind of.
Um okay. Not really because um he's just exploring, right? Okay. We will meet someone who wants to be God later on, but like not not here. Okay.
Yeah. Go ahead. Um earlier in verse 94, neither my fondness for my son nor pity for my old father nor the love I owed pen penelopey do was able to defeat in me the longing to gain
145:00experience in this world. So um he uh ignored and betrayed and was treacherous towards people he should love or loves him.
He he abandoned his family. Right. Right. He has a father, Leartis. He has a son, Tamakus.
He has a wife, Penelope. And he says, "I love my wife, but my desire to to wonder override my love for my own wife." And so why did he fail in his mission to explore? How did he die? He has no anchor. Right.
Right. Remember how in paradise It is Donny's love for Beatric that propelled him to heaven, right? Well, in your exploration, what anchors you is your love for family. You have to ask yourself, why am I exploring? Like, where am I going?
And um Ulysi didn't know, so he just fell off the the face of the earth because there was nothing to hold him back. Okay. And that's why the punishment is the flame. because the flame of ambition, right? And he's just trapped in his in his ambition, but there's no body to it.
There's nothing to hold that flame back. The flame just wanders about. Okay. So again, what D is saying, this is like really important, is that we as individuals, we are ultimately anchored by our family, our community or our society. Without these things, we are really nothing.
Okay, does that make sense? Okay. Any any other questions or thoughts about this? Yes.
But doesn't Dante celebrate individuality?
Right. But what he's saying is that individual individual has to be anchored to other people. You can only be an individual um with other people. Does that make sense?
147:00Yes.
Why is this worse than murder and thiever?
Um yeah, that's a question. Why? Well, thievery you are hurting those you're you're hurting str you're hurting strangers, right? But what Ulissa is doing, you're hurting your own family, right?
You're betraying your own kind and your own roots.
Okay?
Right? Does that make sense? Because because your son needs a role model, your wife needs a husband, and your father needs a son, and you've just abandon them in order to pursue your own ambition. You're ruthless. You're all you care about is your ambition.
Okay, does that make sense? Okay, good, great question. Okay. Um, but do you do you understand the idea? So, so do you understand the idea that the an individual can only be so um with other people?
You can't be an individual by yourself, right? And like it's hard for for you to appreciate, but at this time in history, what's the worst punishment for people? Exile, right? Does that make sense? Not execution, exile.
Okay? And that's why Donn is so pissed off right now because he's he's writing this in exile from Florence and he's like, I can't be be who I am without Florence. Okay? You're taking away my identity. Does that make sense?
All right. Yes.
Um could I uh I want to add to the counter before to the metaphorist.
Sure. Sure. Sure.
Um the idea that well the he the thieves get turned into snakes. And the question is well who else got turned into a snake? And it was the original serpent right by God. And the serpent was the one who basically robbed Adam and Eve of paradise.
149:00Right.
So basically that's like the illusion to that.
Exactly. You're exactly right. Yes. Um um and in fact Milton will use this metamorphosis for Paradise Laws because in Paradise Laws uh the end fate for Satan and the devils is they all turn into snakes. Okay.
So so it's almost like symmetry. All right. Uh thank you. All right. Let's keep on going guys.
Okay. And I I want to commend everyone, okay? Because now the discussion is much more interesting. All right. So, uh this is great.
What was happening? Okay. Um 27 now.
27. The flame already was erect and silent. It had no more to say. Now it had left us with the permission of the gentle poet. when just behind it came another flame that drew our eyes to watch its tip because of the perplexing sound that it sent forth.
Even as the Sicilian bull that first had bellowed with the cry, and this was just of him who shaped it with its with its instruments would always bellow with its victim's voice, so that although that bull was only brass, it seemed as if it were pierced through by pain. And so were the helpless words that from the first had found no path or exit from the flame transformed into the language of the fire.
Okay. Right. So um it may seem innocuous, right? Oh, you're you're you're trapped in a flame. Who cares?
Okay. So what Dante is doing is he's reminding you how painful it is by reminding you of the Sicilian bowl. Okay. So, simil bull was this hollow brass uh sculpture and then you were put inside of it and you were burned inside of it. Okay?
And then you felt so much pain that you cried and then people outside would hear basically a a ball moaning. All right? So, you're being burned alive constantly. So, it's pretty painful. Uh keep on going.
Line 16. But after they had found their way up toward the tip and given it that
151:01movement which the tongue had given them along their passage, we heard, "Oh you to him I turn my voice, who only now were talking Lombard, saying, "Now you may leave, I'll not provoke more speech. Though I have come perhaps a little late, may it not trouble you to stop and speak with me. See how I stay, and I'm burning. If you have fallen into this blind world, but recently out of the sweet Italian country from which I carry all my guilt, do tell me if the Ramanolis have peace or war. I was from there the hills between Orbino and the ridge where Tyber springs.
I still was bent attentive over him when my guide nudged me lightly at the side and said, "You speak? He is Italian." And I, who had my answer, said already without delay, began to speak to him. Oh soul that is concealed below in flame. Romana is not now and never was quite free of war inside its tyrants hearts. But when I left her none had broken out.
Ravena stands as it has stood for years. The eagle of Palenta shelters it and also covers turvia with his wings. The city that already stood long trial and made a bloody heap out of the French now finds itself again beneath green paws. Both masters of Arukio, old and new, who dealt so badly with Montania sees used their teeth to bore where they have always nod. The cities on Lemona and Satnal alert are led by the young lion of the white lair.
From summer unto winter he shifts factions. That city with its side bathed by the Savio, just as it lies between the plain and mountain, lives somewhere between tyranny and freedom. And now I pray you, tell me who you are. Do not be harder than I've been with you, that in the world your name may still endure. After the flame, in customary fashion had roared a while, it moved its pointed tip aside, and that in that set free this breath.
If I thought my reply were meant for one, whoever could return into the world, this flame would stir no
153:02more. And yet since none, if what I hear is true, ever returned to life from this abyss, then without fear facing infamy, I answer you, I was a man of arms, then wore the cord, believed that so ge I made amends, and surely what I thought would have been true had not the highest priest, may he be damned, made me fall back into my former sins. and how and why I'd have you hear from me. While I still had the form of bones and flesh my mother gave to me, my deeds were not those of the lion, but those of the fox. The wilds and secret ways, I knew them all, and so employed their arts that my renown had reached the very boundaries of earth.
But when I saw myself come to that part of life, when it is fitting for all men to lower sails and gather their ropes, what once had been my joy was now dejection. Repenting and confessing, I became a frier, and poor meat would have helped. the prince of the new Pharisees who then was waging war so near the Lateran and not against the Jews or Sarissens for every enemy of his was Christian and none of them had gone to conquer Achre or been a traitor in the Sultan's lands took no care for the highest office or the holy orders that were his or for my cord which used to make its wearers lean but just as Constantine on Mount Sori to cure his leprosy sought sought out Sylvester. So this one sought me out as his instructor to ease the fever of his arrogance. He asked me to give counsel.
I was silent. His words had seemed to me delirious as and then he said, "Your heart must not mistrust. I now absolve you in advance. Teach me to batter Palestrino to the ground. You surely know that I possess the power to lock and unlock heaven.
for the keys my predecessor did not prize are two. Then his grave arguments compelled me so my
155:03silence seemed a worse offense than speech. And I said, "Since you cleansed me of the sin that I must now fall into, Father, no long promises and very brief fulfillments will bring a victory to your high throne." Then Francis came as soon as I was dead for me. But one of the back black cherubim told him, "Don't bear him off. Do not cheat me. He must come down among my menials.
The counsel that he gave was fraudulent. Since then, I've kept close track to snatch his scalp. One can't absolve a man who's not repented, and no one can repent and will at once. The law of contradiction won't allow it. Oh miserable me, oh miserable me, for now I started when he took hold of me and said, "Perhaps you did not think that I was a legician." He carried me to Minos, and that monster twisted his tail eight times around his hide.
And then, when he had bid it in great anger, announced, "This one is for the thieving fire. For which, and where you see, I now am lost. And in it, this garb I move in bitterness." And with this his words were at an end. The flame departed, sorrowing and rifing, and tossing its sharp horn. We moved beyond.
I went together with my guide along the ridge until the other arch that bridges the ditch where payment is imposed on those who since they brought such discord bear such loads.
Okay. So uh just to summarize the sinner he gave protentant council. Okay. So he is a military strategist and the pope bonafice wanted to take a c a certain city and the pope asked him for what clever strategy can I use to take this city and the uh sinner was like I'm afraid of god I'm not going to tell you and bonafice is like I speak for god I promise you that if you help me I will guarantee you into heaven that is my power as pope so he says fine then
157:04here's my advice um grant amnesty to the people and when they open the doors we'll just kill everyone or or we'll we'll capture the leaders. Okay. And that strategy does work and um when he died he thought that he was going to heaven and St. Francis came down from heaven to take him to heaven as was promised by the pope. But then um one of the fallen angels says you can't go because um you gave father fraud and counsel and so your actions determine your place in hell.
This is a very strange story for a variety of reasons. Let's start naming the reasons why this is a strange story or it doesn't really make any sense. St. Francis came up from heaven and then he was denied. Okay.
Why is this a paradoxical story? This is like really problematic story actually. Well, the first paradox is um St. Francis agrees with the corrupt Pope Bonafice, right? That's kind of strange.
Bonafice said that if you help me, I guarantee you uh a place in heaven. And Bonafice uh this isn't isn't Simony uh but it's pretty corrupt, right? It's pretty evil. And St. Francis up in heaven says, "Sure.
Sure. Like that's a deal. I I'll come and get get the man." And then the black servant had to intervene. This is like really problematic. Okay.
That's the first paradox.
159:11Yes.
What's a black sherban?
Black sherban. A sherban is an angel, right? So a black sherban would be a fallen angel. Yes. So remember when we were in paradise there were many different orders of angels right?
So Sherbin is one of the orders. This is a really hard paradox right. Francis who is founder of the uh Franciscan order. Those who are devoted to uh poverty, the one of one of the least corruptible individuals in history. He's helping a very corrupt pope do evil in the world.
What's going on here? And again, I don't know the I actually don't know the answer. I I'm just throwing this out there. Okay. It's confusing me as well.
[snorts] Something about even if St. Francis came hear me. Hello. Something about even if St. Francis came down and and um agrees with Bonaf uh that he he will try to bring this man to heaven.
Something about the law of contradiction doesn't allow it. Something about the nature of his repentance. What does it mean the contradiction here? Okay. What it means is yes, your heart says I want to repent, right?
But your action says another thing. Okay. So just because you say something, believe something doesn't doesn't count. It's like your action has to match these things. Okay?
So yes, you did become a frier. You did promise yourself to a
161:11life of God. But you also committed treachery. You also lied to the people inside the city, drew them out, and then betrayed them. You also gave the pope really bad counsel. You should have told the pope like, "Don't do this.
Don't go against your enemies." Instead, you um you you helped them trick other people. Okay? You gave father counsel. You engage in manipulation and treachery and deception, right? So it doesn't matter what you say, your actions speak for themselves.
Okay, that's the idea here. You're condemned by your actions. Yeah, guys, there's no answer. We're just for possibilities. Yes.
Um Yeah, but I mean the Pope should have known that this is not godlike, right?
And the Pope's going to burn in hell.
Yeah,
right. We already know this is going to burn in hell.
Yeah,
right. Right. Yeah. But like almost every pope was corrupt.
Well, a lot. Okay.
So, like almost everyone should be there, right?
Yeah. There are a lot of popes burning hell. Yes. Okay. Uh anyone else?
Yes.
Yeah. There's something about I mean this one and uh and the past few kantos there's something about manipulation that comes to mind. It's it's it's almost like the flip side of the positive imagination of love by God. This is the manipulation of this kind of like the other side of the coin to serve himself, right? It's still a fundamental selfish act to to appear
and that's why he's burning in hell. But the story again, the story there are certain paradoxes in the story. I still don't get why Francis would come down to honor this contract.
Yes.
Uh yeah, I would just uh uh keep asking
163:13a question like because I know that during back that period the black black party to keep fighting with the white party. So the denting which is uh uh I think he's he's tried to uh against the black party right but during back that period I think the two party want to try to compete each other who is right and who will be uh superior so maybe in that case that uh yeah maybe this only the war killing people which can just allow the uh the impair to be solidified so
yeah did you want to say something something well it was a black angel that told him that he can't bring him to heaven. But black angels are fallen angels, right?
Fallen angels don't have any power in heaven,
or do they?
Well, no. There's like like the man died, right? The sinner died and now there are two angels fighting for his body, right? St. Francis and the black sherban.
Okay. And the black sherban is I have priority over you.
Why? Why does it have priority?
Excuse me. Why does it why does a fallen angel have more priority than
Yeah, that's a paradox, right? I'm saying like there are a lot of paradoxes in the story. One paradox is yes, uh why did Francis agree to help him? And two, how did the black sherpian have more power than St. Francis?
Right. These are paradoxes. All right. Okay. Let's try to unpack what's going on.
Okay. Point one is that [clears throat] the pope bonafice says that at the keys to heaven. Okay. So what this is saying is that as pope he is the rep representative of god on earth. Okay.
So he does have a certain power and that's why the sinner agrees to such duplicity because he's guaranteed right. There's a contract at at at play. Right. Okay.
165:14And then because of this contract uh St. Francis has to come and honor this contract otherwise you're you're avoiding the authority of the church of the Catholic Church on earth. Okay, does that make sense? But this is saying that there are these laws that are above the contract in the Catholic Church. Okay.
And at this point in history to hear these ideas would be revolutionary, right? Because at this time in history, everyone did believe the pope was the representative of God on earth. And and Catholics still do today. And the pope literally has a power to grant you access to heaven. Okay?
So that's what I think is going is going on, but I could be wrong. Okay? Right. This is all just speculation. Any other thoughts or comments about about this?
Just following up on what you just said, I think justice trumps the Catholic Church and that authority.
Yeah. And this is revolutionary at this time at this point in history is history, right?
Mhm.
Okay.
This alludes to the universality of truth like there there is something governing even you know the angels close to God.
That's right. Okay. Yes, there is a cosmic order. Okay. All right.
Let's keep on going. KTO 28. Who even with untrabled words and at many attempts at telling ever could recount in full the blood and wounds that I now saw? Each tongue that tried would certainly fall short because the shallowess of both our speech and intellect cannot contain so much. Were you to reassemble all the men who once within a puliest fateful land had mourned their blood shed at the Trojan's hands as well as those who fell in the long war where massive mounds of rings
167:14were battle spoils even as Libby writes who does not and those who felt the thrust of painful blows when they fought hard against Robert Biscar with all the rest whose bones are still piled up at Cheperano. Ichipoleon was a traitor there and two at Taliao where oldardo conquered without weapons and then where one to show his limb pierced through and one his limb hacked off that would not match the hideousness of the ninth abyss. No barrerow even though it's lost a hoop or hand and peace ever gapes as one whom I saw ripped right from his chin to where we fart. His bowels hung between his legs once saw his vitals and the miserable sack that makes of what we swallow swallow excrement. While I was all intent on watching him, he looked at me and with his hands he spread his chest and said, "See how I split myself.
See now how maimed Mohammed is. And he who walks and weeps before me is Ali, whose face is opened wide from chin to forlock. and all the others here whom you can see where when alive the sers of dissension and scandal and for this they now are split.
Okay. So this in this uh part of hell uh these are people who've caused civil discord war between families. Okay. And the first two people people we see being punished are Muhammad and Ali. And this of course would be confusing to a lot of people especially Muslims.
Okay. So what how understands this is that he thinks um that Islam is just splitting off from Christianity. Right? You believe you all read the Bible, you believe in the same God. And so this is basically just a division uh of of two religions.
Okay? So at this
169:15time in history uh Catholics believe that Muhammad was just leading leading a a a heresy. Okay. So and then Ali is Muhammad's grandson. He caused a division among the Islamic faith between the Shia Muslims and the Sunni Muslims. Okay.
The Shia Muslims believe that only an ances sorry only a descendant of Muhammad can be khalif be the supreme leader. And the Sunnis believed no that's not necessarily the case. Okay. And that caused a massive shism which continues to to today. Okay.
[snorts] Um and so for creating this um discord their bodies are constantly ripped in half and split all the time. Okay. All right. Uh let's keep on going. Line 37.
Behind us here, a devil decks us out so cruy, replacing everyone of this throng underneath the sword edge when we've made our way around the road of pain. Because our wounds have closed again before we have returned to meet his blade once more. But who are you who dotle on this ridge perhaps to slow your going to the verdict that was pronounced on yourself? Accusations. Death has not reached him yet, my master answered.
Nor is it guilt that summons him to torment, but that he may gain full experience. I, who am dead, must guide him here below, to circle after circle throughout hell. This is as true as that I speak to you. More than a hundred, when they heard him, stopped within the ditch, and turned to look at me, forgetful of their torture, wondering. Then you who will perhaps soon see the sun, tell Fra doino to provide himself with food, if he has no desire to join me here quickly, lest when snow besiees him, it bring the novar re the victory that otherwise they would not find too easy.
When he had raised his heel as if to go, Muhammad said these words to me, and then he said
171:15it on the ground, and off he went. Another sinner, with his throat slit through, and with his nose hacked off up to his eyebrows, and no more than a single year remaining, had with the other stayed with his steps in wonder, he was the first before the rest to open his windpipe, on the outside all blood read, and said, "Oh, you whom guilt does not condemn, and whom, unless too close resemblance cheats me, I've seen above upon Italian soil, remember peer mach medachina, if you ever again the gentle plain that from Verelli slopes to Marco. And let the two best men of Fano know, I mean both Messer Guido and Angelo, that if the foresight we have here is not vain, they'll be cast out of their ship and drowned, weighed down with stones near Catholica because of a foul tyrant's treachery. Between the isisles of Cypress and Minorca, Neptune has never seen so cruel a crime committed by the pirates or the Argus. That traitor who sees only with one eye and rules the land which one who's here with me would wish his sight had never seen will call Guido and Angelo to a parlay, and then will so arrange it that they'll need no vow or prayer to Fakara's wind.
And I to him, if you would have me carry some news of you above, then tell and show me who so detests the sight of remining. And then he set his hand upon the jaw of a companion opening his mouth and shouting. This is he, and he speaks not. A man cast out. He quenched the doubt in Caesar, insisting that the one who prepared can only suffer harm if he delays.
Oh, how dismayed and pain he seemed to me, his tongue slit in his gullet. Curio who once was so a dashes in his talk and one who walked with both his hands hacked off while lifting off his stumps through the dark air so that his face was hideous with blood cried out you will remember Mosca too who said alas
173:16what's done is at an end which was the seed of evil for the Tuscans I added and brought death to your own kinsmen then having heard me speak grief heaped on grief he went his way as one gone mad with sadness. But I stayed there to watch their company and saw a thing that I should be afraid to tell with no more proof than my own self. Except that I am reured by conscience that good companion heartening a man beneath the breastplace of its purity. I surely saw and it still seems I see a trunk without a head that walked just like the others in that melancholy herd. It carried by the hair its severed head which swayed within its hand just like a lantern.
And that head looked at us and said, "Ah, me." Out of itself it made itself a lamb. And they were two and one and one and two. How that can be, he knows who so decrees. When it was just below the bridge, it lifted its arm together with its head so that its word might be more near us. Words that said, "Now you can see atrocious punishment.
You who still breathing go to view the dead. See if there's any pain as great as this. And so that I you may carry news of me. Know that I'm Bertrand Deborore, the one who gave bad counsel to the fledgling king. I made the son and father enemies and and Kitaphell with his malicious urgings to not do worse with Abselum and David.
Because I severed those so joined I carry alas my brain decevered from its source which is within my trunk and thus in me one sees the law of counter penalty. Okay. So we are we are these sinners committed um they sold discord and this discord became permanent right. So we talked about Muhammad and Ali. Then there's courio who um um sold discord between Caesar and Pompei who were previously
175:17good friends. This is this uh led to a massive civil war in uh in Rome which will end only with the rise of the Roman Empire. You also have betray the born and he's lost his head because he caught discord. He caused discord or civil war between a father king and a son the prince. Okay.
Um just for fun um who you put into this circle like today like from from from history or from today or just from your imagination. Who would you put into this circle? A sort of discord just for fun. Yes.
Hitler.
Excuse me.
Hitler.
No, that's that's not what he did. Yes. Okay. Because like I asked people like who who belongs in hell? Your first first thought is Hitler, right?
But like let's think about the punishment. Okay. So of discord. Uh yes. uh representative of Democrats and Republicans and like far right far left.
But but but can you give me an example
like Trump for Republicans and like Kim Harris?
Maybe Donald Trump, right?
Yeah.
Okay. Maybe Donald Trump because Donald Trump has led to the polarization of American society, right? It's either you are for him or against him. Yes. So So good good good idea.
Yes.
Uh yes. along that line. I was gonna say JD Vance.
Why? Why does JD Vance?
Because he also sews conflict.
But then every politician s conflict then, right? Um yeah, but but but yeah, Trump is a good suggestion. Anyone else? It doesn't have to be a real real person. It could also be a fictional character, a movie character.
Okay. Or just someone from your life that you really really don't like. Okay. Yes.
177:17Social media in general and the makers of it. So Mark Zuckerberg, right? Is that a possibility?
Because you schism, it doesn't have to be like turning one into two. It can be turning one into multiple scatter.
Well, no. No. The idea of like the social media algorith algorithms is that they're trying to provoke anger because with anger, you're much more engaged. You're much more likely to use uh social media, right? So someone like Mark Zuckerberg is a source of discord and that's a maj major concern about social media right before you had the evening news and evening news was a place to build consensus to build community with social media you just go in your live in your own bubble and then you start arguing with other people and then it's no longer about finding consensus it's just about like beating the other guy right so Mark Zuckerberg arguably is a source of discord along with Donald Trump yeah these are two good good suggestions Anyone else?
[snorts]
Yes.
Maybe not a good one, but uh Greta Thumbberg.
Okay. Why?
Like she she creates discord between people who seek like money without like looking at the earth like environmental. So she creates division between people who believe in environment and people who just make money and billionaires.
Um right. Okay. But is she is she the root of this conflict? Is she the cause of this conflict? Uh yes.
Yeah. Just media in general I guess is like the biggest polarizing factor like any media form like newspapers u movies maybe even
right media. Sure.
Just media.
Right. I'm looking for a name guys. Okay. You you can't put media into hell. You have to put a person in hell.
Yes. Make maybe Nick Fuentes for his accusing
179:18Jewish people in Zionist.
Yeah, I I I I think that's a good choice as well. Nick Fuentes. Yes. Right. Yes.
Right.
Just following his idea. I was going to say Charlie Kirk.
Some people believe that. Yes. Right. Depends on your politics, but some people do do believe that. Yes.
Um
schism though. like this idea of schism. What why what are we schisming like we're separating?
Yeah, that's a good point.
What are we separating
Yes.
from?
Right. So So the best choice would be Donald Trump because he caused a schism in the Rep Republican party, right? Between conservative Republicans and MAGA, right? That's that's a pretty good
but but but according to Dante, this is schisming from God, right? And I mean there's
not necessarily
not necessarily.
Not necessarily. No.
Right. because Caesar and Pompei didn't believe in God. Right. Okay. All right.
So, this is this is just an exercise. Okay. It's like like like it's not political commentary. Yes. All right.
Yes. All right. Let's keep on going. KTO 29. So many souls and such outlandish one.
outlandish wounds had made my eyes inebriate. They longed to stay and weep. But Virgil said to me, "Why are you staring so insistently? Why does your vision linger there below among the lost and mutilated shadows? You did not do so at the other moes.
If you would count them all, consider. 22 miles make up the circuit of the valley. The moon already is beneath our feet. The time allotted to us now is short, and there's more to see than you see here." Had you, I answered him without a pause, been able to consider why I looked, you might have granted me a longer stay. Meanwhile, my guide had moved ahead.
I went behind
181:19him, answering as I walked on, and adding in that hollow upon which just now I kept my eyes intent, I think, a spirit born of my own blood laments the guilt which down below costs one so much. At this my master said, don't let your thoughts about him interrupt you from here on. attend to other things. Let him stay there. For I saw him below the little bridge, his finger pointing at you, threatening, and heard him called by name, Jerry Debello." But at that moment you were occupied with him, who once was Lord of Honapor.
You did not notice Jerry. He moved off. My guide, it was his death by violence, for which he still is not avenged, I said, by anyone who shares his shame that made him so distable now. And I suppose, for this he left without a word to me. and this has made me pity him the more.
And so we talked until we found the first point of the ridge that if there were more light would show the other valley to the bottom. When we had climbed above the final cloister of Malibul, so that its lay brothers were able to appear before our eyes, I felt the force of strange laments like arrows whose shafts are barbed with pity. And at this I had to place my hands across my ears. Just like the sufferings that all the sake of Valdicana's hospitals, Mormas, Sardinas from July until September would muster if assembled in one ditch, so was it here. And such a stench rose up as usually comes from festering limbs.
And keeping always to the left, we climbed down to the final bank of the long ridge. and then my sight could see more vividly into the bottom where unuring justice the minister of the high lord punishes the falsifiers she had registered. I do not think that there was greater grief in seeing all Aena's people sick than when the air was so infected that all animals down to the little worm collapsed and afterward as poets hold to be the certain truth those ancient peoples
183:19received their health again through seed of ants. Then I felt when I saw in that dark valley the spirits languishing in scattered heaps. Some lay upon their bellies, some upon the shoulders of another spirit. Some crawled on all fours along that squalid road. We journeyed step by step without a word, watching and listening to those six souls who had not strength enough to lift themselves.
I saw two sitting propped against each other as panis propped on pan to heat them up. Heat them up. and each from head to foot spotted with scabs. And I have never seen a stable boy whose master waits for him, or one who stays awake reluctantly so by a horse with currical themselves with clawing nails, their itching had such force and fury, and there was no other help. And so that nails kept scraping off the scabs just as a knife scrapes off the scales of carp or of another fish with scales more large.
Oh you who use your nails to strip yourself, my guide began, my guide began to say to one of them, and sometimes have to turn them into pincers. Tell us if there are some Italians among the sinners in this moat. So may your nails hold out eternal at their work. We too who you see so disfigured here. We're Italians, one said in tears.
But who are you who have inquired of us? My guide replied, "From circle down to circle, together with this living man, I'm one who descends. I mean to show him how." At this their mutual support broke off, and quivering, each spirit turned toward me with other who by chance had heard his words. Then my good master drew more close to me, saying, "Now tell them what is it what it is you want." and I began to speak just as he wished, so that your memory may never fade within the first world from the minds of men, but still live on and under many sons. Do tell me who you are and from what city, and do not let your vile and
185:20filthy torment make you afraid to let me know your names." One answered me, "My city was a redso, and Albero, a sienna, had me burned, but what I died for does not bring him here, bring me here. It's true that I had told him justestingly. I'd know enough to fly through air, and he with curiosity but little sense wished me to show that art to him, and just because I had not made him dalis, had one who held him as a son burn me. But Minos, who cannot mistake, condemned my spirit to the final pouch of 10, for alchemy I practice in the world. And then I asked the poet, "Was there ever so vain a people as the Cianese, even the French can't match such vanity?" At this the other leper who had heard me replied to what I said, "Except for Streka, for he knew how to spend most frugally, and Nicolo, the first to make men see that cloves can serve as luxury.
Such seed and gardens where its suits can take fast root, and two, Katcha Dashano's company. With him he squandered vineyards and tilled fields, while Abalato showed such subtlety. But but if you want to know who joins you so against the Sianes, look hard at me. That way my face can also answer lightly and see that I'm the shade of that capoio whose alchemy could counterfeit fine metals. And you, if I correctly take your measure, recall how at I was at aping nature.
Okay. All right. So this is really interesting because we've reached the lowest um area of hell and this area is reserved for those who engage in alchemy. Okay. Now alchemy is something that that's very common back at this time.
Alchemy is basically trying to find uh trying to turn lead into gold.
187:23It's trying to find the elixir of youth um or immortality. Okay. So, you're trying to do chemistry basically. Why would this be the worst sin in the circle of fraud? What's the issue with this?
We we know why thievery is an issue. We we we know why uh identity theft is an issue. We I understand all this, but why why would alchemy be an issue? In fact, it's the worst thing you can you can do in in fraud. Yes.
Because it gives people false hope and say like people waste their life pursuing something that is not real,
right? But then you can argue that heresy is the same thing, right? Uh yeah. Yes. Yes.
So is it because of like these alchemists, they actually feed some of like what you want? For example, they feed your greed, they feed like this uh your your want of for example love or immortality,
right? But but all people who commit fraud do that, right? Why are they the worst of all these fraudsters? Did Did you um
It's like you're you're trying to change the whole fabric fabric of the world.
Yes.
You're trying to bend everything for your wants and desires.
Yes. You're trying to change the loss of God. Okay. It's not that you're not going to succeed, but the fact that you're trying, the fact that people are helping you try, that's a problem. Okay.
is a bad example. Okay. So, before we we're discussing society, right? The law of society and how people warp society with fraud. But
189:25now with alchemy, you're trying to warp nature with fraud. Okay. And that's even worse. Okay. Does that make sense?
Right. Uh yes,
this is a bit of a weird question, but I [clears throat] saw some thought of some parallels. But would you say like for example today the striving and working towards AI is kind of like old alchemy because we're trying to fabric of AI is alchemy guys.
Yes, you're exactly right. Okay. Uh yes.
How about nuc nuclear energy? Nuclear.
It is it is alchemy. It is alchemy.
It is it is complete complete alchemy. Yes, that's right. Yes.
How about moon landing? It's also considered as alchemy. What do you think? Excuse me.
Mool landing. Moon landing.
Moon landing.
Yes.
Um, it's not alchemy, but you're also going against the laws of nature, right? It's like Ulisses falling off the the edge of the earth, right? It's like, why are you on the moon, guys? Like, like, why? There are poor people back here.
Okay, there's lots of problems here. Solve the problems first before you go to the moon. Okay. So, it's not alchemy, but it's still problematic. Okay.
But AI is 100% alchemy. Nuclear energy is uh also problematic. Okay. It's also alchemy. Okay.
Uh yes.
But but what if the uh just like AI who can give the people job, give people hope or leave the love? Is this still the economy?
It's a huge problem. Yes. Right. Yes. Did you?
A few decades ago, they would have said the internet is alchemy. But the internet has brought you know education like this YouTube live stream to millions of people and it it's also improved jobs. So is that like would you also say the internet is alchemy?
The internet is not alchemy
but then AI is alchemy.
Right. Right. Okay. So so so so can you try to explain the difference between AI and and the internet? [snorts]
191:30Like the the internet facilitates normal worldly ideas to spread but AI is from nothing creating.
What does AI stand for?
Artificial.
That's alchemy guys. Creating intelligence artificially, right? Turning lead into gold. Artificial intelligence. Yes.
I I guess I guess I mean um uh just taking the the the the thesis of this whole course is to assume that this is divinity, right? I guess one of the things that I can see here is a warning about manipulating nature, manipulating reality, the nature of reality itself is that the risks that these things come with are unimaginable. It is it is potentially the worst.
Yeah. So the problem with our world today is like we don't think there are moral laws at work right we are in a post-truth world right we are beyond god we can be our own god uh yes
maybe similar to artificial intelligence is artificial insemination or uh genetic manipulation in order to create the perfect
that is correct yes
perfect offspring and numerous offspring
yes is you're absolutely Correct. It is alchemy. That is alchemy. Uh yes. Um did Yes.
Did you have a
Yeah. It's like uh I feel curious like how could we like why we regard AI as argument but obviously he has mentioned a part of but uh but but for me I feel a little bit confused because I thought like based on a algorithm it's I know it's like artificial it's intelligence but still it's currently those models doesn't have their own power to create it idea that never have occurred before.
193:30So like for me AI is still a tool that is more objectively like help you to search out the information that has already been exist. So from my point of view AI may not like obey the law of God because it's actually doesn't create something. It's just like trying to sort out the information for you.
Right. Right. I understand this. But for Donnie the concern is the intent. It is the intent.
If you talk to people who work in AI they're like we're trying to create God. Okay,
you understand? So, alchemy, right? Trying to turn lead into gold. It doesn't work. We know it doesn't work.
There'll never be immortality. But what are all these Silicon Valley building spending their money on? Immortality, right? It's not that you'll succeed, but it's like you you intend to do this. Okay.
Right. That's the issue. All right. Uh yes. So if uh nuclear power is alchemy is for example fossil fuels or um like renewable energies also alchemy.
Um okay so nuclear energy we can debate about. Okay. Um but yeah, I would say nuclear energy is alchemy because um and I think the crucial distinction is that with nuclear energy you're you're entering into territory that is the very fundamental na fabric of nature of the universe, right? And you don't actually know the consequences of your actions, right? Look, there there are people who believe like the entire point of the nuclear bomb is to open portals to welcome summon demons into our world.
There are literally people who believe that, right? That's alchemy. Okay. So, the point isn't as nuclear weapon weapons are not meant to be a
195:30weapon. They're meant to be a portal to summon interdimensional aliens or demons into our world. Okay. Uh yeah. So, so it's of intent.
Yes. Yeah, with this intention then I wonder alchemy is turning lead to gold which is which is impossible by the laws of chemistry and God. The splitting of the atom is possible. We've done it. So I wonder if this intention to a thing that cannot happen is alchemy where a thing that can happen is no different than me taking medicine for a sickness.
God put that sickness in my body. God gave me the ability to cure the sickness. The intention is there on both of them. One one is within the realm of the fabric of the universe. one is clearly not
right. Okay. So, that's a really interesting comment. Okay. And so, how would Donnie respond to this?
Well, you have the intention, but you're not going to succeed, so who cares? How would Donnie respond to that? You would say, "If there's a will, there's a way." You understand? So, you we think we cannot turn lead into gold, but we actually have succeeded in doing so because now we have the idea of money, right? What is money?
Money is alchemy. Because what I've done is I've taken a piece of paper, right? Any piece of paper, and I've turned it into gold, right? Is How's that different from alchemy? I can now use this money to go buy a house or buy a car.
Yes.
I guess the the difference would be classification. You you're turn you turned that paper into wealth, but you did not turn it into gold. So,
but but but but what is gold?
So, gold is wealth, right? They're both wealth. They're both types of wealth, but you did not turn it into the physical components of
Well, I can tell you I can use money to buy gold.
Yeah. You So, you turned them both into wealth. They both have value. You turn them into purchasing power, but you didn't turn it is into the physical components of gold.
No, no, no. But what I'm saying is like
197:31lead into gold, right? If I add an intermediary step, which is like to print money, then I solve the problem, right? I can use money to buy gold and then I can sell lead to get money. Okay. So, how's that different?
So, so, so I'm not saying, you know, we succeed at turn into gold. I'm saying like for Dante, the concern is where there's a will, there's a way. We can never ever underestimate the human imagination. That's the animating force of the universe, right? So, we set our intent on something and this intent is malicious, then that's a sin.
Yes.
Yeah. I also agree with the fact that if you have a will to distort the order that God has set up to be, then that's the ultimate sin. Just like the Tower of Babel, where there's a whale, there's a way. So, people are building the tower of Babel to reach heaven and be like, we can reach God, we can let God. Basically, it's like the first landing of the moon.
like people trying the impossible, you know, going into outer space and God was like, "Oh, no, you guys are not going to do that. I'm going to give you languages so you guys are messed up, so you can't do that." But that the sub um messages is that if people so well continue, they probably can because there's a will, you know, there's a way. And so that's why God had to send us different languages to stop, you know, uh people working towards that goal. So I think it's the same scene that's repeated here. It's like if there's a way, a whale, there's a way.
So if there's a will to replace God, right, and distort his order that he has established in the natural laws, you know, then it's abomination,
right? Okay. Uh yes,
I think there is a kind of philosophical but also German concept. It's called anten, right? And and is you de art, you know, denature to turn something into another nature to to
199:32basically to betray your nature. And at E N T A R A T N. Yeah.
And naturalize.
Yeah. Yeah.
So basically to uh to um to deprive the the the Yeah. Okay, that's you you play better.
Well, what no but why is it why is it a German
an art basically is uh is chemistry because it's basically uh try to deprive the uh the human being or the you know godly kingdom of its uh original purpose.
Why is it just a German thing? You know alchemy is a purpose you know the the intent is to to you know take over the kingdom of god you know the whatever the humanity and to replace his world with your own personal you know will and that's I think is uh goes beyond the the nature of you know the rule rules of nature and then that's a you know crime against humanity
right and we can also uh appreciate that um these alchemists are sinful Because even though they're not successful, they still try they still make people believe that it's possible to change the rules of nature, which leads to hubish, which leads to a lot of like really bad behavior. Okay. All right. Okay. So, does that make sense, guys?
All right. Let's let's continue. Uh but thank you so much for that. Okay. It's a really interesting idea and we'll come back to it later on because we live in an age of AI and uh what I want to do as we move on is try to use uh Dante to better understand the most pressing issues of our time including AI.
Okay. All right. So this is infernal 30. KTO 30. When Juno was inscented with
201:33Semile and thus against the Thean family had shown her fury time and time again. Then Atheus was driven so insane that seeing both his wife and their two sons as she bore one upon each arm, he cried, "Let's spread the nets to take the lioness together with her cubs along the path." And he stretched out his talent, his talents, Pinilas, and snatched the son who bore the name Learchus, whirled him around, and dashed him on a rock. She with her other burden drowned herself. And after fortune turned against the pride of Troy, who had dared also that the king together with his kingdom was destroyed. Then Hecuba was wretched, sad, a captive, and after she had seen Polyena dead, and it mis in misery had recognized her polyodoris lying on the shore, she barked out of her senses like a dog.
Her agony had so deformed her mind. But neither fury, thieven, and Trojan ever was seen to be so cruel against another. In rending beasts, and even human limbs, as were two shades I saw, both pale naked, who biting ran berserk in just the way a hog does when it slits loose from its thigh. The one came at Capo uh Capoio and sank his tusks into his neck so that by dragging he made the hard ground scrape against his belly. And he who stayed behind the aratini trembled and said that phantoms Johnny sneaky and he does raging rending others so he goes raging rending others so and oh I said to him so may the other not sink its teeth in you.
Please tell me who it is before it hurries off from here. And he to me that is the ancient soul of the indecent mirror. She who loved her father passed the limits of just love. He ca she came to sin with him by falsely taking another shape upon herself just as the other phantom who goes there had done
203:34that he might gain the lady of the herd when he disguised himself as Boso Donati making a will as if most properly. And when the pair of raging ones had passed, those two on whom my eyes were fixed, I turned around to see the rest of the illorn. I saw one who had been fashioned like a loot, if he had only had his groin cut off from that part of his body, where it forks. The heavy dropsy which so deport disproportions the limbs with unassimilated humors, that there's no match between the face and belly, had made him part his lips like a consump a consumptive. who will because of thirst let one lip drop down to his chin and lift the other up.
Oh, you exempt from every punishment in this grim world, and I do not know why, he said to us. Look now, and pay attention to this, the misery of Master Adam alive. I had enough of all I wanted. Alas, I now long for one drop of water. The rivulletes that fall into the Arno, down from the green hills of the canentino, with channels cool and moist, are constantly before me.
I'm racked by memory. The image of their flow parches me more than the disease that robs my face of flesh flesh. The rigid justice that would torment me uses as most appropriate the place where I had sinned to draw swift size from me. There's Romina. There I counterfeited the currency that bears the Baptist seal.
For this I left my body burned above. But could I see the miserable souls of Guido, Allesandro, or them or their brother? I'd not give up the sight for Fonty Bra, and one of them is in this moat already. If what the angry shades report is true, what use is that to me whose limbs are tied? Were I so light that in a hundred years I could advance an inch, I should already be well upon the road to search for him among the mutilated ones.
Although the circuit measures some 11 miles and is at least a
205:34half mile across, because of them I'm in this family, it was those three who had incited me to coin the Florence with three carrot straws. And I to him, where are those two poor sinners who give off smoke like wet hands in the winter and lie so close to you upon the right? I found them here, he answered. When I rained down to this rocky slope, they've not stirred sins and will not move. I think eternally one is the lying woman who blamed Joseph, the other lying son, Greek from joy, because of raging fever they wreak so.
And one of them who seemed to take offense perhaps of being named so squalidly, struck with his fist at Adam's rigid belly. It sounded as if it had been a drum, and Master Adam struck him in the face, using his arm, which did not seem less hard, saying to him, "Although I cannot move my limbs because they're too heavy, I still have an arm that's free to serve that need." And he replied, "But when you went to burning, your arm was not as quick as it was now. Though when you coined, it was as quick and more." To which the drop seed one, "Here you speak true, but you were not so true a witness there. when you were asked to tell the truth at Troy. If I spoke false, you falsified the coin, said Sinon.
I'm here for just one crime, but you've committed more than any demon. Do not forget the horse, you perjurer, replied the one who had the bloated belly. May you be plagued because the whole world knows this. The Greek, and you be plagued by thirst that cracks your tongue and putrid water that has made your belly such a hedge before your eyes. And then the coiner.
So as usual, your mouth because of racking fever gapes. For if I thirst and if my humorous bloats me, you have both dryness and a head that aches. Few words would be sufficient invitation to have you lick the mirror of narcissists. I was intent on listening to them when this was what my master said. If you
207:35insist on looking more, I'll quarrel with you. And when I heard him speak so angrily, I turn around to him with shame so great that it still stirs within my memory. Even as one who dreams that he is harmed and dreaming, wishes he were dreaming, thus desiring that which is as if it were not. So I became within my speechlessness, I wanted to excuse myself, and did excuse myself, although I knew it not. Less shame would wash away a greater fault than was your fault, my master said to me.
Therefore, release yourself from all remorse and see that I'm always at your side. Should it so happen once again that fortune brings you where men would quarrel in this fashion. To want to hear such bickering is base.
Okay. All right. So, this is a very complicated conto. Okay. There are lots of individuals and there's a lot going on.
Okay. So in this last area of the circle of fraud, there are lots of people who are condemned here. Okay, they are of course the alchemists. Then you have um impostors, people who steal people's identity. Then you have counterfeits.
And so first of all, what do we have? Actually, you know what, Carol, could you could you do me a favor and Google this? Like, um, who's actually in uh, KTO 30? So, so, so, so I want to make sure I'm correct here, okay? I I I want to make sure because this is a very confusing KTO and there are lots of different individuals.
Okay, so let's see who they are. Okay. Okay, so these are the falsifiers. Yes, you have Master Adam who's a counterfeitter. You have a spy
209:35who's a false witness. You have Jenna Siti who is a impostor. And you have um Mea Marha. Okay. And so the two people who are having an argument are Son and Master Adam, right?
Master Adam is a counterfeitter and Son is a Greek spy who convinced the Trojans to take in the Trojan horse. They're having an argument about who is worse. Um Jenny Seti, he is a impostor who uh disguised himself as a dead person. Okay. So, first of all, what is the connection among all these people, the falsifiers?
It's a very confusing section. You have a counterfeitter, you have a spy, you have an impostor, you have Myra who uh disguised herself to commit incest for her own father. Oh, what's going on here? Maybe this is a just a garbage heap of hell, right? Like you don't belong in any other category, so you just stumped here.
But that's not Dante, right? We we already said that Dante there's a lot of intentionality, there's a lot of creativity, there's a lot of imagination. So what is he doing here? All right. So let's look at certain things that happens.
Okay. So the alchemist uh who suffers who suff who suffers from leprosy. Okay. Their their punishment is leprosy. Uh Diani the impostor he sinks his teeth into the leper.
What does this signify? Do you think? And again it's all speculation guys. We don't know. Okay.
211:35We we don't actually know what the allegor allegorical meaning is. We're just speculating here. Okay. But but there's this violent scene where the impostor Giani, he sings his teeth into the alchemist and tries to eat him. [snorts]
Yes. Yes. So impostor basically is a person who tried to steal somebody else's identity and uh so this uh this u you know a appropriate uh punishment or educational course for them is to to to let them sink their uh uh you know to uh consume the identity of a of a very uh evil person so that they will uh it will be satiated.
Okay. Yeah. So um the thing though is that the alchemist is a leopard. Okay. And at this time in history who who does everyone want to avoid lepers.
Okay. So uh the punishment for this impostor is uh he's forced to just randomly eat people including those who are lepers. Okay. Okay. So that makes sense.
Why would Master Adam, who's a counterfeitter, why would he argue with Sina about who's worse? And this is actually the first time in Divine Comedy, we see an argument between two souls, right? These two sinners. And the argument like who's worse, right? Well, I mean, like technically they're all they're all equally bad, right?
Because they're in the same area of hell. So what what are they arguing about? Let's just for some possibilities, okay?
213:36Like like like like just speculate. Just use your imagination. Let's throw ideas out out here. Let's just brainstorm together. Okay.
You have a counterfeit and you have a spy arguing about who's worse. How would they do that?
Yes.
Uh because each of them feel like uh the other one shouldn't be at the same level where they are. You know, there like every every every one of them feel like they're superior and or like they're condemned least like uh lesser sin than than the others. Yeah. Yeah. So, they're different, right?
And they're trying to figure out like why they're together and they're kind of pissed that they're together. Yes. Yes.
Um like the alchemist, they both changed the nature of reality. So, Master Adam, he basically changed he like um he changed money basically, right? Or like he made fake money. So, he changed the nature of money.
Yes. and Son changed um I mean he basically yeah made made the Trojans believe that it's a horse that is is a present right for the Trojans even though it basically destroyed Troy so he changed
also their nature of reality
yeah so the similarity is that both are changing the perception of reality ity, right? Who are manipulating the perception of reality? They're not alchemists who are manipulating reality itself, but they are changing people's perception of reality, right? One by creating counterfeit coins and take advantage of
215:36uh people's reliance on money and the other is giving false testimony or lying in order to create um a different reality. Okay. So once a once a counterfeit another is basically like one of these um fake news reporters, right? Uh, yes.
I wonder if maybe the counterfeitter doesn't fit, but an impersonator is a form of theft, but it's a specific you're stealing someone's identity and which would be like God's creation. You're stealing something from God because God created you in your identity where if I stole your wallet, God didn't create that. Okay. So, why are they all together, right? These all the falsifiers.
They're they're all different. Yes.
They all pray on people's trust.
They all pray on people's trust. They take advantage of people's trust. But this is an entire circle, right? Uh yes,
they're all manipulating a larger trust. So money is it's not just trust between individuals, it's trust by society, right? Um what's the other one? The Trojan horse. This is this is you know you're you're ending an entire civilization,
right?
Altering the course of history,
right? I think this could be a step more than alchemy because instead of changing objects, um, you're impersonating Mera impersonated as a different person to sleep with her father,
right?
And
217:36I guess it's something that's supposedly created by God and is transformed into something that you can't trust. M
so you're not just manipulating objects and soulless things.
You are manipulating things that supposedly have a soul.
Yes. Okay. Right.
Or you know another word uh whereas uh in the less the lesser sinners uh they might uh be stealing things or destroying people's trust. uh this group of sinners they create a false trust.
Yes.
Uh which could be uh you know meta trust meta severy. So which is a higher level of sory.
Yes. Okay. Yes. [snorts] For alchemy, we said that to an extent it's futile because it's to do with your will. But [snorts] I'm not sure the exact history of all these people, but did they actually succeed in doing?
But how do they succeed? What allowed them to succeed in a way that alchemists could not succeed? Alchemists want to change the nature. They want to change the fabric of nature, right? You can't do that.
That's not what we can do. What word is crucial to Dante that we have not used today and basically yesterday
consciousness maybe
why consciousness is important
because it's
what do we what do we do with consciousness our
connection with God consciousness or imagination
in imagination okay all So, one possibility, okay, and I'm just throwing
219:36this out there for us to discuss, okay, is is that the what what these four people have in common is hijacking the imagination. Does that make sense? Okay. So, remember in paradise, the imagination is what makes us unique. It's what makes us co-creators with God, right?
It's what allows the universe to expand outwards. But you could also use your imagination for evil, right? And when you use it for evil, what happens is the universe contracts. You're limiting people's imaginative space. Does it make sense?
You're hijacking the imagination for evil ends that brings evil to the world, right? And before we always thought that imagination is a good thing. Well, it should be a good thing. It should be a play and you can use it to create poetry to create society. But there are people who can hijack people's imaginations to create evil in this world.
Right? Does that make sense? So, as a counterfeitter, what you're doing is you're hijacking people's imagination that this money is very valuable. Right? As a spy, you're hijacking hijacking people's imagination that people tell the truth.
The impostor hijacks people's imagination that only we can write our own wills, right? So, they're all hijacking imagination in some way, right? And if you think about it, for Dante, this would be a lot worse than trying to hijack nature. Okay.
221:37And this is interesting because in our society then who are like the worst people to me? No, not really. That that would be like loss against uh acting against God in nature, right? It'd be like sodomy and uh incest. It it'd be in a circle of violence.
But this circle fraud. Uh, yes.
Influencers on social media.
I think so. I think so. I I think that's what Donn is saying here. Okay. And I could be wrong, but it sounds like social media influencers, people with like huge followings, but not me, of course.
Um, they're the worst people because they're hijacking the social consciousness. They're hijacking the social imagination. Okay, I'm not any names because I I'll get in trouble. But yes, you can you can imagine certain people, right? Okay, so that's what he's saying here.
Any Yes. Yeah. Because I have heard in America the highest the hierarchical uh crime is not is not killer. It's just the people who manipulate others and try to let them believe that the lie is truth. Look, look, I mean like this is hard for people in China to appreciate, but media people are really powerful in America.
You know, it's actually true in China. Media people in China have absolutely no power. But in America, if you work in the media, you're really really powerful. Okay.
Yesterday, one of the um participants mentioned that in Heidi, the biggest crime is fraud. So I mean a lot of fraud happens when some voice AI voice impersonates a father or mother or son or daughter to get money from someone.
Right. Exactly. Right. Um right. So so so you are with your social media influence you could hijack the
223:39imag imagination of millions of people. So yeah [clears throat] I I think that's what he's saying here. I could be wrong. Okay. But I'm trying to figure out what these poor people have in common because they're so different on the surface, right?
Okay. All right. Uh let's continue. Count to 31. The very tongue that first had wounded me, sending the color up in both my cheeks, was then to cure me with its medicine, as did Achilles and his father's lands, even as I have heard when it dispensed a sad stroke first and then a healing one.
We turned our backs upon that dismal valley by climbing up the bank that girdles it. We made our way across without a word. Here it was less than night and less than day, so that my sight could only move ahead slightly. But then I heard a bugle blast so strong it would have made a thunderclap seem faint. At this my eyes which doubled back upon their path turned fully toward one place.
Not even Roland's born which followed on the s the sad defeat when Charlemagne had lost his holy army was as dread as this. I'd only turned my head there briefly when I seemed to make out many high towers. And I asked him, "Master, tell me what's the city?" and heed to me, it is because you tried to penetrate from far into these shadows that you have formed such faulty images. When you have reached that place, you shall see clearly how much the distance has deceived your sense, and therefore let this spur you on your way." Then lovingly he took me by the hand and said, "Before we have moved farther on, so that the fact may seem less strange to you, I'd have you know they're not towers, but giants, and from the navl downward all of them are in the central pit at the embankment. Just as whenever mists begin to thin, when gradually vision finds the form that in the vapor thickened air was hidden, so I pierced
225:41through the dense and darkened fog. As I drew near, always nearer to the shore, my error fled from me, my terror grew. For as on its ground wall, Monty Rajoni is crowned with towers. So they're towered here above the bank that runs around the pit with half that half their bulk the terrifying giants whom Jo still menaces from heaven when he sense his bolts of thunder down upon them. and I could now make out the face of one.
His shoulders and his chest, much of his belly, and both his arms that hung along his sides. Surely when she gave up the art of making such creatures, nature acted well indeed, depriving Mars of instruments like these. And if she still produces elephants and whales, whoever sees with subtlety holds her, for this to be more just and prudent, and where the mind's acutest reasoning is joined to evil will and evil power, there human beings can't defend themselves. His face appeared to me as broad and long as Rome can claim, for it's St. Peter's pine cone, his other bones shared in that same proportion.
So that the bank which served him as an apron down from his middle showed so much of him above that three Freezelanders would in vain have boasted of their reaching to his hair. For downward from the place where one would buckle a mantle, I saw 30 spans of his. Rafael Maya Zabi al-Mme began to bellow that brute mouth for which no sweeter psalms would be appropriate. and my guide turned to him. Oh stupid soul, keep to your horn and use that as an outlet when rage or other passion touches you.
Look at your neck and you will find the strap that holds it fast and see bewildered spirit how it lies straight across your massive chest. And then to me he's his own accuser for this is Nimrod through whose wicked thought one single language cannot serve the world. Leave him alone. Let's not waste time and talk. For every language is to
227:41him the same as his to others. No one knows his tongue.
So Nimrod of course is the man who built the Tower of Babel, right? And for his crime um he now whatever he says is gibberish. Okay, he's incomprehensible. Okay, keep on going. So turning to the left, we journeyed on, and at the distance of a bow, shot, found another giant, far more huge and fierce, who was the master who had tied him so.
I cannot say, but his left arm was bent behind him, and his right was bent in front, both pinioned by a chain that held him tight down from the neck, and round the part of him that was exposed. It has been wound five times. This giant, in his arrogance, had tested his force against the force of highest Joe, my guide said. So he merits this reward. His name is Ifaltis, and he showed tremendous power in the giants frightened the gods.
The arms he moved now moved no more. And I to him, if it is possible, I'd like my eyes to have experience of the enormous one, Briaras. At which he answered, "You shall see Antiaz nearby. He's unfettered and can speak. He'll take us to the bottom of all evil.
The one you wish to see lies far beyond and is bound up and just as huge as this one and even more ferocious in his gaze. No earthquake ever was so violent when called to shake a tower so robust as a falt quick to shake himself. Then I was more afraid of death than ever that fear would have been quite enough to kill me had I not seen how he was held by chains. And we continued on until we reached Antius, who not reckoning his head, stood out out above the rock wall full of five L's. Oh you who lived within the famous valley where Shipio became the heir of glory where Hannibal retreated with his men, who took a thousand lions as your prey, and had you been together with your brothers in their high war, it seems some still believe the sons of
229:42earth would have become the victors. Do set us down below where cold shuts and cosetus and do not disdain that task. Do not send Don't send us onto Titus Tidius or Typhen. This man can give you what is long for here. Therefore, bend down and do not curl your lip.
He still can bring you fame within the world. For he's alive and still expects long life, unless grace summon him before his time. So said my master, and in haste Antheus stretched out his hand, whose massive grip had once been felt by Hercules, Hercules, and grasped my guide. And Virgil, when he felt himself caught up, called out to me, "Come here so I can hold you," then made one bundle of himself and me. Just as the garisa seems when seen beneath the leaning side, when clouds run past and it hangs down as if about to crash, so did Andyas seemed to me as I watched him bend over me.
A moment when I'd have preferred to take some other road. But gently on the deep that swallows up both Lucifer and Judas, he placed us, nor did he, so bent over stay there long, but like a mast above a ship, he rose. Okay. So now we are now entering the final circle of hell. Uh one comment is that Dante creates symmetry, right?
So remember in paradise what lead what um what what leads us to the imperium are are these angels, right? And now as we enter the final circle, um it's these giants that lead us the way. Um I just put this out there, okay? Why giants in hell? Why angels in heaven?
It's obvious for angels in heaven, but why giants in hell?
231:43[snorts] And again, you just have to use your imagination because there's no answer. Okay? You're going to like literally look at footnotes and they won't ever tell you why that why they're using giants instead of instead of like I don't know other things. Okay? You the Dante, he demands your imagination.
Yes.
It's kind of like how ants are afraid of humans. We're afraid of things that are giant in size and much bigger than us.
Okay. [snorts] Yes. It's also just ironic because giants we usually associate with greatness and good things, but this time they're taking us to a bad place.
Okay. What are giants made of?
Clay, rocks, right? What is hell made of? Probably clay and rocks, right? What are angels made of? Divine light, right?
What is heaven made of? Divine light. So, so I I think that's that's what what's happening here. Okay. These giants are a literal expression of the landscape of hell and the angels are a literal literal expression of the landscape of heaven.
Okay. They're manifestation of the um elements that make heaven and hell possible. That's my guess. I also think that um with uh let's say goodness and sin or perverseness of goodness um there's something that's insatiable about falling into the abyss.
Um and it's almost like um a snowball that snowballs down that I think um it just gets heavier heavier and keeps you down.
Yes. That's really interesting. Exactly. Right. So yeah, the the angels are light.
The he the giants are obviously heavy, right? And that maybe that's a metaphor for sin where the sin if you commit one sin, you you keep on doing
233:44another until it becomes a giant, right? This the sin becomes a giant. Yes.
And I al also noticed that the giants are basically silent. So they don't speak they don't they don't speak much. And I remember that the angels, they're often um described as like they sing a lot.
Yes.
And so I think like both both angels and giants, they don't really like speak human languages, but like in heaven um the soul is elevated into um an expression of harmony and music.
Yes. Whereas in hell it's basically like um like numbness and like silence.
That's beautiful. Yeah, that's brill actually. This is something I would have never come up with. Okay. So both Carol and and you would like this is great.
Yes. Okay. And that's what Divine Comedy is asking us to do to constantly use our imagination. Okay. Don himself actually doesn't know what he's trying to do.
Okay. He's just trying to excite our imagination. Yes. And also another point is that the angels if they're singing it's like high vibration, high pitch, right? The and if the giants aren't speaking, it's low vibration, right?
You think about the etmology of discord is literally discord
and a chord is harmony which is the opposite of what you just mentioned with heavenly music.
Wow. Okay. Okay. This is like really interesting now. Okay.
Yes. Any other thoughts or comments? Okay. So, so again, that's why the Inferno, the Divine Comedy, it's it's really the world's best literature because it's constantly forcing us to imagine new possibilities. Okay.
All
235:45right. So, um let's keep on going to uh 32. [snorts] Conto 32. Had I the crude and scramal rhymes to suit the melon melancholy hole upon which all the other circling crags converge and rest the juice of my conception would be pressed more fully but because I feel their lack I bring myself to speak yet speak in fear.
Okay. Right. So that's why this music idea is so important. Right? Because in heaven it's this pure singing.
Here it's there's music but it's like sighing and melancholing and groaning and despair and apathy. Okay. So you can hear the music but it's one of hell. Okay. Keep on going.
For it is not a task to take in just to show the base of all the universe. Not for a tongue that cries out mama papa. But may those ladies now sustain my verse who helped Empon when he walled up thieves so that my tale not differ from the fact. Oh rabble miscreated past all others there in the place of which it's hard to speak. Better if here you had not been goats or sheep.
When we were down below in the dark well beneath the giant's feet and lower yet with my eyes still upon the steep embankment. I heard this said to me, "Watch how you pass. Walk so that you not trample with your souls the heads of your exhausted wretched brothers. At this I turned and saw in front of me beneath my feet a lake that frozen fast had lost the look of water and seam of glass.
Okay. All right. Okay. So this is why Dante is such a genius. We are at the very heart of hell.
And when we think of hell you think of like fire and brimstone, right? and instead at the very heart of hell is a frozen lake. Okay. And so,
237:45uh, he's just shocking. He's revolutionary. Um, so this is something that that we we'll think a lot more about tomorrow. Okay. When I end Inferno and discuss why is it that a center of hell, it's a frozen lake rather than like this raging fire as we would expect.
Um, we will also meet Lucifer. Um, and you would think that Lucifer is a king of hell, but we actually meet Lucifer. He's not really the king of hell. Okay. So, um, lots of contradictions, lots of paradoxes, and we will start to uh unra unravel them tomorrow.
Okay. So, we'll finish Inferno tomorrow morning and we'll start purgatory um tomorrow afternoon. So, please um review what we've learned. Please go ahead and and read finish Inferno and read the first five contos of Purgatory. Uh I want to thank everyone for the great discussion today.
I actually learned a lot from everyone today. A lot of your comments just blew my mind. Okay. I I I'm going to go home and think a lot more about some of your comments and some of your some of your um ideas. So, but but that's the ideal seminar, right?
Where we're all learning from each other, where where where we're all contributing our own individuality to the larger discussion. So, thank you so much and great job today. Okay, I'll see everyone tomorrow.