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0:00Okay. Okay. Um, good morning. Welcome back. Um, any outstanding issues from yesterday or any questions you have so far?
Anyone?
Okay. Sure. I was pondering the issue of um why don't we confront our um anger these types of emotions directly and head on.
Um reminded that um sometimes we need to go all the way down to be able to get back up.
Um and to myself at least and this is particularly personal. Um, I think part of going to Inferno is also to see kind of the full length and consequence of all these um emotions because just like the mirrored flame you talked about yesterday, sometimes when you have a negative emotional reaction to something, it's because there's something in you that reacts to that. And so I think sometimes you don't go tackle some problem head on, but you need to kind of dive deep into it really really deep in order to emerge from the other side.
That's right. Thank you so much. Yeah. Uh yes.
Um so the whole journey into helping these beings like is it reasonable to assume that Dr. writer was inspired by the being to help his lover extremely.
Yeah. Exactly. Yes. Thank you. Yes.
Exactly. So Dante is trying to create a renaissance, right? He's trying to um delve deep into the memory of western civilization into human civilization and
2:02recall all these great traditions that have been lost over time. not only Orpheus but also Dionius um basically the great legends of the Greek tradition and again most of most of these things are are lost but even though the memory has been lost the feeling is still there right so he's trying to conjure up these this nostalgia exactly yes ortheus is very important uh for for Dante okay um any more comments okay so um with regards to yesterday I want to make two clarifications So yesterday I was asked a question. Um I said that Mary's child um if she had a child before Jesus and if this child were to die uh as an infant then this child would be next to God. And I want to explain my logic here. Uh because what Dante's trying to convey and this is a really important thing you must understand about Dante is he's saying that God's justice is perfect.
Meaning that with enough love and with enough imagination, you can reason out the logic of everything that God does, it'll be convincing and understandable to everyone around you. Okay. And so the logic is this. Um Mary is the queen of heaven. And she's the queen of heaven because she is the best of us.
Okay. She is she is the person who is able to give birth to uh a god Jesus. And she is so perfect. We have to assume that her mother is perfect as well or her mother is also very virtuous. That's why Anna the mother is also um in heaven and in the uh highest sphere next next to God.
So if we just work out the logic, if um Anna is
4:02uh virtuous, the the most virtuous, which allows for Mary to be even more virtuous, the perfect in virtue, then we're going to assume that whatever child uh Mary has will also be extremely virtuous given the fact that uh she uh the child is born of Mary, but also given the fact that Mary is will parent this child, right? And now so um it is entirely possible for the child to screw this up and you know just become an adult and just do a lot of bad things. That's possible but if the child dies as an infant then you have to assume that this child will be a virtuous person as well and will deserve a seat next to God. Uh you have to make that assumption according to to this logic. So if the child dies at um as an infant then God in his infinite wisdom in his perfect justice will assign this infant a seat next to him.
Okay, does that make sense? Logically again everything has to be explained um logically and you can actually reason this out. All right. Um this is important because uh yeah go ahead.
No but but u this is regarding to the unborn child, right? um prematurely dying before uh they are able to reason. I feel like Dante bringing this up towards the end as we reach the kind of like the pinnacle uh of heaven.
This is the pinnacle of heaven.
Yeah. As as we are in the pinnacle of heaven, I think Dante is I I I wouldn't call it humility, but Dante is admitting that there are unknown unknowns primarily around the question of free will.
Mh. Because free will consciousness until today it's not a figured out subject right and and and free will as we we talked about u with regard to God God is trying to God gives us free will but God probably doesn't even wasn't the
6:03one who created free will that means free will transcend it might be something beyond I don't know it's further
beyond the beyond god reasoning even right
because because if If you're trying to generate something like like we've discussed, God wants to um it's probably not something that you can create on your own,
right?
It's like energy, right? Right. The reason why we we we we mind energy that we need energy is because it's not something that we can kind of come up from scratch,
right? Okay. Yeah. So, um I I think uh where I agree is like um there are no absolutes in the universe. Okay.
There are a lot of things that are special cases and in these special cases um you have to really use your love and imagination to figure these special cases out. Okay, in the infant case is again the hardest theological problem in the universe. Okay, so this is to address the issue why would Mary's child be granted access to the imperium. Okay. The other issue that we that we discussed um last class is um why would Virgil agree to being Dante's guide?
And I was a bit being in tongue and cheek. I said, "Well, it's because PH is really hot." Um and there's some truth to that, but it's not it's never that complicated. It's never that simple, right? Because if you actually read the passage, um what Peter said to Virgil is that if you were to do this, then God will reward you. God knows about this.
We have a special um permission from God to help Dante, even though he's still not dead, ascend to to heaven. You will guide him from hell to purgatory, and then I'll pick him up pick him up in purgatory, and then I will take him to heaven. Okay? And so, um, Virgil has opportunity to enter paradise, but we know for a fact he
8:04doesn't. He's not in paradise. So, this creates a question for us. How is it that Virgil is granted access to paradise? Because all he has to do is guide Dante.
Okay, we know that Dante is a access paradise. So, Virgil succeeds in his mission. And we know that God has already made Virgil this promise. You helped Dante reach paradise and you went to paradise as well. But Virgil is not in paradise.
So this creates a mystery for us. Okay? and and and and that's why I wanted to read read it in this order because you recognize you you because you recognize that there must be something about Virgil, okay, that does not allow him to access paradise. So why couldn't he access paradise given the logic of of of this class so far? Yes.
So this is something I've been curious since the first day, but since you talked about Virgin not being able to access paradise, this kind of brought this up to me. So, uh, God is love, God is light, and you are a measly teacup. Is it possible for the teacup, it's it's like the sun, okay? It's like the sun, like the sun's rays nourish us and help us, but too much time out in the sun and we start to blister and we start to get sunburn. Is it possible for some people knowing the nature of angels to purposefully to voluntarily turn away from God to live in the shade?
Um so look um the answer to the question why did Virgil not into paradise the answer is he did not want to he chose not to go to paradise he chose to stay in hell and there's something really important to appreciate if you are to understand uh the ultimate message of the divine comedy okay all right so um let me provide some background before we we start so the thing that
10:04Dante and Virgil both understand is that poetry is what gives birth to civilization. Okay? Poetry is what teaches people how to think, how to feel, and how to imagine. Without poetry, there can be no civilization. And the classic example of this is Homer.
So, Homer, which we will not read. Um, and by the way, this is something really important for you guys to appreciate. Dante did not read Homer. He did not have access to the Iliad in the Odyssey because in this world they spoke Latin and Homer is written in Greek. Okay?
So, he couldn't actually read Homer and it was very hard to access a Homer manuscript at this time. But Homer wrote the Iliad and the Odyssey and um this will give rise to probably the greatest civilization in human history, the Greek civilization. Okay, Athens. Uh in classical Athens from about uh 450 to 350 B.CE will basically create the framework for western civilization. This is a time of Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Fusidities, Heroditus, basically everyone.
Okay. Um, and a lot of things that uh were taught back then, we still teach. If you go to B, if if if you go back to biology class back at this time, it would not be that different from biology class today. Okay, it's pretty um amazing to think about. What then will happen is that Alexander the great will then conquer the world.
Okay, basically Persia which was most of the world at this time and he will take Greek civilization as far as uh India. Now, Exon the Great is interesting because he's really the first great
12:05world conqueror in history and um there's a lot of debate as to how Alexander was able to accomplish this but the main reason is and I I know this is hard for you guys to appreciate but no one uh no one before him wanted to do this. Okay, let's think about this logically. Before war was about extortion, right? either you give me land or you give me money or you give me you know hostages or I will come and invade you. So it's bas basically an extortion racket.
So when Alexander was threatening Persia basically the person said to him we'll give you half the empire okay like half the empire which is a lot of land we'll give you like a trillion dollars but don't invade us. And usually this was enough to buy peace, right? But Alexander was like, "I don't want your money. I don't want your land. I don't even want your throne.
I want glory." And again before nobody who was king, nobody had an army would think like this because you have an army to feed. They want woman. They want land. They want riches. And so we have to appease your army.
Right? Like no all I want is glory. I want to be remembered forever as the world's greatest conqueror. So I don't I don't want any of this. And so you're like, where where did where did he get this idea?
And the answer is the Iliad, Homer, Achilles, right? If you read the Iliad, um Achilles is very clear. He's like, I'm in the beach of Troy. I know I will die here in a couple years. I know that because I was given this prophecy.
I don't care because I was told that by coming to Troy I will be remembered as
14:05the greatest warrior in human history. Okay, that's what I want. I want the glory. Um and so that's why Alexander did what he did and this and he was able to bring Greek civilization as far as India. Okay.
And so what is the basis of Greek civilization to understand Greek civilization? You you do understand two ideas. Okay. These two ideas are the basis of Greek civilization. They are erete and uronia.
Er means excellence. Okay. And the idea of is what matters is to stand out from the crowd. What matters is to demonstrate your excellence to um the world. And you can do that by two ways for you can do that one on a battlefield by being a great hero in which people will celebrate you and sing sing songs about you like Achilles right mean great war on the battlefield but another way of doing it is to be a great speech maker to stand in front of your peers your colleagues and give a speech that rouses them to action that convinces them to do good that sways them to your opinion okay so these are two way main ways in which you do that either through speech making or for war fighting.
Okay, war fighting the exemplar is Achilles. Speechm, the exemplar is Odysius. Okay, so these are the two main ideas undergirling uh Greek civilization and Greek civilization because of these two ideas is able to become the greatest civilization in history because everyone's trying to be the best. Everyone's trying to be uh to transform the world. Okay, just as what Dante told us, right?
To live a life of faith, hope and love. Well, at this time, they were trying to live a life of ereete and
16:05udeimmonia. Basically the same thing. And this is what made Greek civilization uh so compelling and which which allowed Greek civilization to spread around the world. Then what happened of course is the rise of Rome. And the Romans were different.
The Romans became the greatest empire in the world because they focused only on war. All they cared about was defeating their enemies. They were able do to do that because of the focus on the idea of piety, loyalty, obedience to the fathers, to the senators, the uh to the history of Rome and to the gods. Okay. So this is a very different conception of uh the world.
And but the problem of course is that once the Romans encountered Greek civilization like wow um Greek civilization is so much more sophisticated so much more cultured than our civilization. They knew that because of homework because they learned Greek, they read the Iliad, they read read the site and they and they were like this is this is what civilization should be about. This is beautiful. Okay. They memorized the Iliad in the Odyssey as part of their education and it became to act out um Greek civilization.
And so the leaders of Rome at this time, mainly Augustus Caesar, the emperor, the first emperor of Rome, uh they're about the son of Julius Caesar, he recognized that over time Roman civilization would be conquered by Greek civilization. Territorially, militarily, the Romans have conquered the Greeks. But over time, culturally, the Greeks will conquer the Romans. Okay? So, what do you do about this?
What you have to do is confront Homer directly. Okay? You need a new poet. You need a new epic poem in
18:06order to replace Homer. And that of course is Virgil's Iniad. Okay? So, Augustus Caesar sponsored Virgil's writing of the Iniad. In fact, they wrote it together.
Okay? Because whenever Virgil finished a particular part, he went to Augusta Caesar and August, I think you should do this. I think you should do that. Okay. But but it was a co-quad together because we have to in order to fully appreciate uh Dante.
And so with the Iniad, with Homer, uh love was at the center of civilization. Okay. Now with Rome, um it is piety or obedience that gives rise to civilization. Obedience is the main organizing principle of civilization. And this becomes the framework also for uh the Catholic Church, right?
Uh Paul and Augustine will work together across centuries to create the fe theoretical framework for the Catholic Church. And basically you create obedience by instilling fear in people. And so Europe descends into the dark ages because fear becomes the main emotion at this time. Okay. People are focused on not doing anything wrong so they can go to heaven.
Right? That limits their creativity. And Dante recognizes this. And so what he's going to do is even without having read Homer, okay, he is going to resurrect Homer and create the divine comedy. Okay.
But the challenge for Dante is
20:08much more greater than for Homer. Homer could come and at this time this is the Greek dark ages. There's really no central authority. They would like a lot of the civilization was destroyed in the Bronze Age collapse. So it's a blank slate.
Okay. So he could come and he could recite his poetry and people would be inspired by it. He had no opposition. Dante is different. Dante has to fight an empire which have a church as well as a god which is Virgil.
Okay. So um what you want to do uh ideally is basically construct your cosmology. Okay, which is paradise, right? We we've already read um Dante cosmology in paradise. We now know exactly what he thinks.
Then what you need to do is go convince people, right? You convince you, you engage in debate and then you hopefully uh spread. Okay. The problem of course is you can't do that at the time history. The Catholic Church is the do is dominant.
So you can't actually spread what you believe. You can't actually debate people. Okay. So the divine comedy has been constructed in a way uh so that Donn can spread his cosmology but in a way that people don't know he's doing it and in a way that convinces people. All right.
So what he has to do is basically agree with Virgil, make Virgil the hero of Divine Comedy, then he has to subvert Virgil, okay? Or maybe subversion, show to us that maybe Virgil is not God, maybe he's fallible, maybe he's just wrong. And then that will then allow him to now promote his cosmology. Okay?
22:12um it's cosmology and that's why divine comedy is constructed in the way that it is. He starts off with hell which celebrates Virgil. He goes to purgatory in which a lot of ideas of Virgil are being subverted and then now we can ascend to paradise um which then allows Don to reveal to all of us his cosmology. Okay, does that make sense? Okay, now it sounds very simple, but you actually do this in practice.
You you can appreciate how hard it is to do, right? Because ideally you want to first create your cosmology, then figure out how to convince other people. But Dante has to start the other way around. Okay? Meaning in his mind, he already needs to figure out the entire cosmos before he writes anything down.
Okay? Okay. And that's what he that's what he does. So, um, having read the Divine Comedy, I can tell you that it's a Divine Comedy that convinced me there must be a God. Before I read the Divine Comedy four years ago, I was an atheist.
I was utterly convinced the world, the universe is emergent. It's materialistic. It's all random. There is no God. There can't be a God.
But having study, it is impossible for me to explain how Dante was able to do this if he did not have divine inspiration, if he was not guided by the Holy Spirit. Okay? If there was not the universe showing him the path because not only you have to construct this way, but you have you have to maintain consistency throughout the process. meaning you have to like drop basically Easter eggs from the very beginning showing that Virgil is compromised. Okay.
Otherwise, it won't work that way. All right. Yes.
Um I agree that the Divine Comedy is a great work. However, I don't think it's
24:13a divine work. Like I don't think its existence proves the existence of God because this is what a world builder does. The Easter eggs and the structure you're talking about, this is very similar to what modern world builders do. They establish a framework first and then they write about their world. So if you're saying that this is a great book, I agree.
But if you're saying that it proves the existence of God, not so much.
Okay. So um okay, that's about criticism. Okay. So two points. First of all, Donnie did not call his work divine comedy.
He called not divine. Divine came later. Why why would all these great poets want to add divine toad? Okay. So if you talk to someone like TS Elliott, if you talk to any great poet of the 20th century, they will tell you there are two great poets in human history.
They are Homer and they are Dante. Maybe some will say Shakespeare, maybe some include Milton, but they all agree there are two great poets of human history. They are Homer and they are um Dante. And the vine was added later on. Okay, remember at this time in history, you can't call anything divine because it's heresy, right?
the Catholic Church is going to chop off your head. How dare you say something's divine? Only the Catholic Church has the authority to say what is divine or not. All right? So, it was not called divine at the time.
It was added on later. That's point um number one. Point number two is that what's interesting is that if you talk to scholars um there's widespread disagreement about the construction of these great poems. So for example, Homer um for the reason there are many scholars who do not believe that Homer was a real person. They thought that Homer was a collection of individuals very much like the movie making process where you might have a director but you also have a cinematographer, you have an editor, uh you have a collection of individuals.
Okay. Some some even argue that the Iliad and the Odyssey were not written
26:14by the same person. uh Emily Wilson who um translated both idiat in the Odyssey. If you go to Yale today director studies the translation you actually read of Homer is is translated by Emily Wilson but I read her preface to the Odyssey. When I teach Odyssey I actually use Emily Wilson and she said that well I personally think that Homer was not a one person. It was a committee.
It was and it was very much a collective process. And I mean I'm sort of surprised by this because if you look at any great work of art, it's always an individual genius at work. Okay? There's never an example of a great painting or a great piece of music or a great piece of literature where it's a collective effort where two two individuals are working together. It only leads to chaos.
Okay? That's let me finish please. Okay.
The Bible.
The Bible is a great work of religion. But if you read the Bible, okay, you will know that it's complete under chaos. There are certain parts of the Bible, for example, Genesis, which is great literature. And we all agree that a lot of the Bible was written by a person called the Yahweh is Jay. Okay?
If you just go spend some time and look at the scholarship on the Bible, okay, they they all tell you the Genesis was written by at least four people. All right, and the story of Adam and Eve was written by one person, only one person who is a Yahwehist. And if you if you read um Hero Bloom, the book of Jay, he makes the argument that the that that Jay was a poet. She was not a it was a she. She was not a priest.
She was not a uh theologian. she was a poet. Okay. So, whatever part of the Bible which is extremely poetic, this includes Genesis, it also includes um the book of the
28:15Gospel of Mark, it was written by a poet. Okay. And if you actually do literary analysis, you can actually see the spark of poetry in certain aspects of the Bible. Yes.
I'm I'm just going along with the hypothesis that okay, say Dante has a framework, right? Dante is a world builder. What ex I don't know. I'm not scholarred in this. So I like what is what exactly is Dante's framework is my question.
Right? If if if if assume with the hypothesis that Dante started up with the framework, what exactly is the framework? Is it mathematical in nature? Is it scientific? It's experimental.
What is it?
Okay. All right. So let's let's go back to uh Homer. Okay. Homer has had to be a real person.
And the reason why is if you actually read the Iliad in the Odyssey, and I suggest you do because they're both tremendously beautiful works of literature. The people inside it are real people, okay? They are real people that and you could feel as though you could meet them in real life and have a conversation with Achilles and have a conversation with this and everyone else in uh in it. And the same thing with the line comedy where you can actually like meet Beatatrice and she's a consistent real person. You can meet Dante, you can meet Virgil and they're all consistent people with real psychology.
Okay. And he'll bloom again. The criteria he uses in order to judge the authenticity of character is does this person hear himself or herself talk? Meaning is this person capable of self-reflection? Okay.
An example of this is where Virgil is telling uh Dante, so Beatatrice promised me access to heaven if I help you. And then and then he hears himself says, "Wait a minute, but that seems like I'm selfish. That's that makes me seem very egotistical." So then he
30:16changes and says, "Oh, but I didn't care because I was so enraptured by her beauty that I agreed anyway." Okay. So that's what happens when you can when the character can hear himself talk right line I say this but oops I see the effect on that person so I'm I'm going to make changes to it and if you read um Homer and Dante that happens with characters all the time when during the speech process the person also step be disassociating and and analyzing his or her own speech okay and that's what makes it authentic and that's why it had to be written by one person only because only an individual is capable of doing that. Okay. Does that make sense? All right.
Okay. So, let us um continue. Um oh, we're now candle three. Okay. And again, something the reason why I want to read paradise first is I want to show you that um this world is complete.
These are real uh people. And even in Inferno, we can see foreshadowings of Paradise. We can only see how Donnie subverting Virgil as an authority. And he has to subvert Virgil in order to uh promote his ideas. Okay.
Through me the way into the suffering city. Through me the way to the eternal pain. Through me the way that runs among the lost. Justice urged on my high artifificer. My maker was divine authority.
The highest wisdom and the primal love. Before me nothing but eternal things were made. And I endure eternally. Abandon every hope who enter here.
Okay. So this is a very famous um sign
32:17to warning to people who who enter hell. Okay. So if you want to come to hell, abandon every hope uh who enter here. Okay. Uh let's keep on going.
Verse 10. These words, their aspect was obscure. I read inscribed above a gateway. And I said, "Master, their meaning is difficult for me." And he to me as one who comprehends here one must leave behind all hesitation. Here every cowardice must meet its death.
For we have reached the place of which I spoke where you will see the miserable miserable people, those who have lost the good of the intellect. And when with gladness in his face, he placed his hand upon my own to comfort me he drew me in among the hidden things. Here sigh and lamentations and loud cries were echoing across the starless air. So that as soon as I set out, I wept.
Wait, stop. Okay, right. Abandon every hope here. Okay. Turn to hell.
You must abandon hope. What does Dante mean by hope?
The hope that he one day he can see Beatrice again.
No, no. I'm saying more generally what how's hope defined by Dante? Yes. But what is arrogance? The ego.
Yes. Okay. Yes. Did
you hope of getting out of it?
Yeah. Just the ego. Okay. Abandon your sense of self. Abandon every a sense of agency and autonomy that you have.
Okay. That's what allows you to enter hell. You understand? Okay. Abandon hope.
Abandon your ego.
Yes. Hope would also conotate a a relation to time. You hope for the future. You don't hope for and so this
34:19is still beyond time and space that you spoken about earlier.
Yes. Yes. Right. Okay. Does that make sense?
Okay. But this is so this is extremely um provocative idea where you're taught like your ego is what leads you to hell, right? your lust, your desire, that's what leads you to hell. But we know from paradise that Dante defines hope as arrogance. So abandon your arrogance.
Those who enter here, right? Abandon your belief that you by yourself can escape hell, can redeem yourself from hell, then you can be here. Okay? Does that make sense?
Yes.
I wonder who wrote these words. Was it like Virgil the writer or was it um sorry, was it Dante the writer or was it Virgil or was it like a classical inscription written by like Homer or Virgil?
Uh mo mo most of this will be Dante. Okay. And where it is someone else Dante will reference. Okay. Because again, Don is a very arrogant person.
He wants you to recognize the originality of his poem, right? Okay. So, this is Dante. And again, the idea of hope is consistent, right? We know from heaven that hope is arrogance, the assertion of self, the belief that you can change the world for the better.
And what Don is saying here is like if you want to enter hell, you have to believe you have no agency. You have no control over anything. That's a pre preconditioning precondition for entering hell. Okay. Does it make sense?
36:20Yes.
I would like to highlight that it's it's actually on the person to decide whether he wants to enter, right? It's this is sending a message to the person who is entering hell.
That's right. Okay. Do you understand? If you in your heart don't believe you should be here, if you in your heart believe you can still escape hell, you can do so because the fundamental law of the universe is free will. Yes.
Yeah. A little bit confused because in the hell just like you said, Danty just gave up, right? He's his hope. But uh there's still some somebody who just stealing the house just like uh Caesar or some kind of emperor you know even the the the the godfather. Do you think that they were all just uh give up their their hope?
No. Well, look, I'm not trying to make a theological argument, okay? I'm just trying to say what Dante's idea is for Dante. Everyone in hell is there because he or she chooses to be there. He chooses to be there because he or she has given up his or her free will.
Does it make sense? Okay. It's a choice you make. Whether it be in heaven or hell, it's a choice you make. Okay.
Uh let's let's let's keep on going. Verse 25. Strange utterances, horrible pronouncements, accents of anger, words of suffering, and voices shrill and faint and beating hands all went to make a tumult that would whirl forever through that turbid timeless air like sand that eddies when a whirlwind swirls. And I my head oppressed by horror said, "Master, what is it that I hear? Who are those people so defeated by their pain?" And he to me,
38:20okay, so so defeated by their pain. Okay, it's the the construction of the words signifies these people have given up. You understand? Defeated by their pain. These are defeated people, right?
And this goes against what we understand about people in hell who are people who just do tremendous evil. Okay, does that make sense? There's a clear difference. Okay, let let's keep on going. Verse 34.
And he to me this miserable way is taken by the sorry souls of those who lived without disgrace and without praise. They now com they now coingle with the coward angels the company of those who were not rebels nor faithful to their god but stood apart the heavens that their beauty not be less than have cast them out nor will deep hell receive them even the wicked cannot glory in them and I what is it master that oppresses these souls compelling them to whail so loud he answered I shall tell you in few words those who are here can place no hope in death and their blind life is so abject that they are envious of every other fate. The world will let no fame of theirs endure. Both justice and compassion must disdain them. Let us not talk of them but look and pass.
And I looking more closely saw a banner that as it wheeled about raised on so quick that any respit seemed unsuited to it. Okay. So again all these three different realms whether they are hell or purgatory or paradise they all parallel each other in structure. Okay. So in paradise it is Beatatrice who is communicating with Dante teaching Dante.
Here in hell it is Virgil that is teaching Dante. Can someone explain to
40:22me the difference the difference in the way that Beatric teaches and the differences in the way that uh Virgil teaches? Do you do do you see do you spot the difference?
Yes.
Uh maybe because ego because Petra just do not want the Dy to give up the the ego but uh yeah the will who just want him to give up.
I guess seems that uh Petrus inspired more imagination from Dante whereas Virg just answers his questions very directly.
Exactly. You understand? Yes. Okay. The major difference is this.
Beatric is trying to be a teacher. As a teacher, you have to ask questions to your student. You have to welcome questions. You have to help provide clue give provide clues that inspires a student to come up with his or her own conclusions. Okay?
Virgil is just like this is the answer. Memorize it. You understand? It's a very stark difference. Okay.
Virgil has Yes. I'm reminded of something that another professor of mine once said. The worst game to play in the world is guess what the professor is thinking. Okay. Okay.
All right. Look. All right. So, do you guys understand the difference? Okay.
Beatrice is trying to guide ver Dante into self-standing which helps us um develop our own self-standing. Virgil is just trying to explain the rules of the universe. And for Virgil, these rules are absolute. So you just must remember these rules. Okay?
Virgil has a very clear u explanation for everything. And uh Dante just must remember this. Okay? And and this is this is a pattern. This is how Virgil will talk to uh Dante.
And it mirrors how people are taught at this
42:22stage in history. It mirrors how people relate to the INIAD. Okay? Because if you read the Iniad, it's different from the line comedy, it's different from Homer in that if you read the line comedy, it leads it leads you to ask a lot of question. It inspires you in action.
Whereas uh the Iniad is just like just obedience, passive acceptance. Okay? It inspires you to to basically just sit down and obey. Okay, so that's the attitude of Virgil. Okay, let's let's keep on going.
Verse 55. Behind that banner trailed so long a file of people. I should never have believed that death could have been made so many souls. After I had identified a few, I saw and recognized the shade of him who made through cowardice the great refusal. At once I understood with certainty this company contained the cowardly, hateful to God and to his enemies.
These wretched ones who never were alive went naked and were stung again, again by horse flies and by wasps that circled them. The insects dre their faces with their blood which mingled with their tears fell at their feet where it was gathered up by sickening worms. And then looking beyond them, I could see a crowd along the bank of a great river at which I said, "Allow me now to know who are these people, master, and what law has made them seem so eager for the crossing, as I can see, despite the feeble light."
Okay, so here in hell, um these people, these souls are lining up to cross into uh the inferno. Okay, they have to cross the river sticks first. And um while they're waiting, they're being stung by these insects. And so what's their response? What are they doing?
First of all, if you were in camping and you're being stung by mosquitoes, right, there are all these insects around you. What would you do?
44:22Yeah, you would do something about it, right? You do bug spray or you you start squatting them, right? What are they doing about it? don't know well they are just talking about they're crying about it
you understand okay so it's this passive acceptance abandon hope right I cannot alter my fate right so that's what hell is hell is just positivity compliance obedience acceptance that's what hell is all right and not only that But Dante uses a word you do not you would not expect from these people. Okay. Line 74. What is this word? What is what?
Like you would not expect this word in hell. Yeah. Eager, right? You're like what? People are eager to enter hell.
Okay, let's keep on going. Uh verse 76. And he to me when we have stopped along the melancholy shore of Aaron, then all these matters will be plain to you. At that with eyes ashamed, downcast, and fearing that what I said had given him offense, I did not speak until we reached the river. So, how is the relationship between uh Virgil and Dante different from the relationship between Beatrice and Dante?
Yeah.
To Dante. Um Virgil's just a guy to um um uh and Beatatrice is like um Dante's uh true love.
Yes. I think for Wirjo he's also like less patient because he is like given a task and then he just wanted to complete his
46:23task as quickly as possible but Beatatric is more like oh I love this guy so I want to like teach him and make him better. So there's like a difference.
Yeah. But but I don't think Virgil I I don't think his motivation is to commit the task. What what what's Virgil's problem? Why is Virgil being impatient? Why?
Why are teachers in your school where you are, why are they impatient?
Yes.
Because we're not listening to them in class.
Exactly. Okay. Do you understand? Because you're you're not obedient. Okay.
All right. Let's let's keep on going.
Yeah. Yes. Like I think that's mistaking the symptom for the cause. Like you're being disobedient so they become impatient. I think I think there's a root cause to all this.
And I think it's uh the explanation that we heard before like it's just a job to
um okay we already establish that Beatrice promise Virgil access to heaven if he completes this task, right? We already know that Virgil will choose not to go to paradise. So, so why do you think Virgil chooses not to go to paradise?
Yes.
So, I was wondering about this because Virgil is seems to be coming from a a a Roman multi- multi-god framework, it seems. So, is there is there a chance that like Virgil sees himself in this Roman classical sense where he's inside now Dante's Christian
48:24framework and displeased with it perhaps?
Yeah. Yeah. V Virgil. Yes.
Maybe Virgil's already abandoned hope.
Uh, no he hasn't, right? Because what? And and how we know he has not abandoned hope.
Uh how about obedience? Because Virgil just have obedience to to the Rome to the authority.
No. No. Okay. Okay. Let's answer this question.
Okay. Virgil has not abandoned hope. How do we know that?
Because he was willing to take on this task.
Exactly. You understand that? Okay. If you have abandoned hope, you don't think I'm capable of this task. Leave me alone.
Okay. This is a really important idea to understand. Hope is the assertion of the ego. Okay. So he is so he has to have an ego to think that oh I can lead this guy out of hell.
Okay. You haven't been able to escape hell but you're able to help this guy escape hell. That's ego. Okay. So if Dante sorry if Virgil is out abandoned hope right then what is he doing in hell?
Like go back to the like teacher analogy. There are some really good teachers like who could be at a really good school, they choose to be at a bad school. Uh yeah. Yes.
Like I said, maybe he chose to be there. Maybe uh because he came from um a polytheistic background and I hate to get into semantics here, but maybe he's just not willing to accept this Christian framework of the world. And so he would rather stay in hell where he doesn't have to face, you know, the one God every day.
Okay. All right. Okay. So like let's make this really simple. Okay.
You've all had teachers, right? You've all had teachers. Some of you are even teachers. What why do teachers teach differently? There are some teachers who want you ask
50:26questions, who give you space to explore, who who want you to make mistakes. There's some teachers who are like we have a teaching plan 45 minutes every minute it's planned already let's just do it and if we don't if and like don't ask questions. Okay. What's the difference between these two teachers?
Yes.
The amount of imagination they inspire.
Okay. Well, the effect is different. But I'm saying what's motivating these two these [clears throat] two teachers? Yes. I think uh one one uh one they genuinely care about their student and one like really doesn't.
So why why is he teaching that?
Yeah. Yes.
One is more for like the material drive like to get a salary and the other is maybe like on another level where they actually want to inspire the student.
Okay. Um I've worked as a teacher. Okay. And I can tell you most teachers I mean like they're not doing a job for the money because the money sucks. Okay.
I'm not saying all all teachers. I'm saying like most teachers like the money the money just sucks. Like Okay. Like I mean uh yeah. Yeah.
Go ahead.
As a teacher like the first style is probably when the student is more promising and you want this person to go further like he can figure it out by himself. So you ask more questions and sometimes when students are like really don't have time for that and you have exam coming and if they're not that smart then you're like hey here's the answer remember it so you at least get a B+ you're never going to get hit at A anyways that could be a reason but that the second one could also be more authoritarian like this is the truth swallow it just like God gives to Ezekiel like you know don't make it wrong just do this is the answer yeah memorize it go ahead
um for my experience experience as a student. I feel like if the teacher skill is not that great and they don't
52:28really understand the material that well and they don't have a strong ability in the in the the the course like the material itself, they're afraid of you asking questions and they're kind of really bad at improv answering questions. So, they just skip stick to the script and what they've prepared. But if the teacher is very knowledgeable in their field, then usually they're more open to discussion.
Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. Any anyone else?
Uh yes.
Uh because teacher what they've been teach is not about themselves. It's about the authority about school who want them to teach. So there must be some teacher who just do their job well because they just be paid to to teach you but not just try to uh you know have willingness to to teach you, you know. Uh yeah. Yes.
At the back.
Uh if you're open to questions, your goal is to transfer the information. Whereas if you're closed, you just want to drop the information. Uh and just like, yeah, I've done my job. I just drop the info. Whereas asking questions is more [clears throat] about transfer and you want your students to have the most of what you said.
Oh, okay. Yeah. I mean, like look, look, it's very simple. Okay. For those teachers who allow questions to be asked, it's coming from a place of love, right?
You want students to learn, but for for teachers who care about the results, it's a it's coming from a place of control. Does that make sense? You want to be able to control the situation. And that I think is the difference between Virgil and Beatrice. And it'll become much more clear as we go along where Beatric is coming from a place of love.
She generally wants to understand and she so she's going to be patient. They're going to have large long debates. Whereas for Virgil, he's coming from a place of control. Okay? He wants to be able to control how Dante thinks.
He want he wants to be able to impose uh his worldview on onto uh Dante. Okay.
54:29So that's why there's this impatient where you know Dante might ask a question that um confuses Virgil or might um create dissonance in in in Virgil's worldview. So So then Virgil gets impat uh Dante senses has a sense of fear. Okay. Okay. Right.
So, so this is going to be an ongoing dynamic throughout Inferno. Uh, yes.
I just have a question. Do you think it's possible that Virgil's also in some ways pretty jealous of Dante because they're both poets and then like Dante is kind of like the chosen one and then like also you mentioned earlier like Beatatric is like very pretty and then she asked Virgil to help and then Virgil's like sure and so maybe he's a bit jealous of Dante and then that's also one of the reason why he want to be in the upper position controlling him.
Any response to this? I I don't think so because uh if you just try to be God it must give up the hope right you give up your ego so how come you just on the one hand give up ego give up hope on the other hand you also want to have envy or you know have some kind of feeling like that
but we said Virgil did not give up on his hope I think
okay no I mean like if if you were jealous of this guy what would you push him in the water.
Yeah. You know, um I I I would think Virgil would just say, "No, right. I'm not going to help this guy." And and also like you need to understand um it's really hard for for you to appreciate but at this time in history Virgil is literally God. Every child is forced to memorize um Virgil in school. No one who
56:31knows who who Dante is. Okay? No one knows who he is. No one cares who he is. And Dante uh told Virgil already, "Wow, you're my hero.
You're my god. I've been reading you since I was young. I'm I'm a poet because I aspire to be like you. Okay. So So they can't possibly visual, oh my god, he's better than I am.
It's beyond his imagination. Okay. All right. Let's let's keep on going. Verse 82.
And here advancing toward us in a boat an aged man. His hair was white with ears, was shouting, "Woe to you corrupted souls. Forget your hope of ever seeing heaven. I come to lead you to the other shore, to the eternal dark, to fire and frost, and you approaching there, you living soul. Keep well away from these.
They are the dead." And when he saw I made no move to go, he said, "Another way, another harbors, not here, will bring you passage to your shore. A lighter craft will have to carry you." Okay, so like hell is like literally the worst school in the world. It's like literally the worst school in the world. It's very materialistic. There are lots of rules.
Um and the students are treated like crap and the students have given up all hope. And um the riverman uh the fairy man who supposed to take the souls across the the river sticks in order to enter hell. Um he sees Dante and says, "Wait a minute here, Dante. You're not dead. You have a body.
So like don't get on my boat because the rule is very simple. Only souls are allowed to get on my boat. Go somewhere else. Okay. Uh keep on going.
Verse 94. My guide my guide then. Karon, don't torment yourself. Our passage has been willed above where one can do what he has willed and ask no more. Now
58:33silence fell upon the woolly cheeks of Caron Pilot of the livid marsh whose eyes were ringed about with wheels of flame. But all those spirits naked and exhausted had lost their color and they nashed their teeth as soon as they heard Karon's cruel words. They execrated God and their own parents and humankind and then the place and time of their conception seed and of their birth. Then they forathered, huddled in one throng, weeping along, weeping aloud along that wretched shore which waits for all who have no fear of God.
Okay. All right. So, um, Shaon is like, "Dante, you're not dead. Get out of my boat." And Virgil's like, "We have the support of God." And God commands Dante to uh get on his boat. And Sean's like, "Oh crap." Okay.
But he agrees. Why is this a paradox? Why does this make no sense?
Because I feel like like Karan is a mythical figure in Greek mythology. So like if he's present then this underworld is like the Greek underworld. So he's he's not supposed to be afraid of the Christian God.
Yeah, that's exactly right. Like who cares? Like this is the underworld, right? God has no authority here. So what does he obey?
The paradox is is this, right? Why is Chiron a Greek mythical character? Why is he obeying the Christian God? It's a paradox. He obeys and he is afraid.
Okay. So, he fears God. So, but he's not
60:33supposed to fear God. What's going on here? Yes.
Who's Sheron again?
Um Cheron in Greek mythology is the fairy man who takes you across the river sticks into hell. Okay. So why is he obeying?
Yes.
So at the end of City of God, Augustine deals with this concept of of hell and of evil. And he says that hell is not evil because hell was created by God and hell is a place of justice. And we have this concept of hell is like Satan's the ruler of hell, but God is the ruler of hell because God create created hell. And so I guess that's why he would be afraid of it. It's because God is the ultimate authority.
Yeah. But in paradise, we learn that there are certain spots where God's like doesn't shine. And one of these places is is hell. So God doesn't really have much presence here in hell. Yes.
Like there's a difference between doesn't shine and doesn't shine at all. Right? Like there is still this infant testimony. There's this there's still this tiny presence of God in hell and God created hell because otherwise he will not be God. Right?
Because this patch of hell does not belong to him. So this patch of hell must still be connected to him in some small way.
Okay? Okay. Look look let's not overthink things. Okay? Like there's a problem with like too much education.
You you tend to like overthink things. Dante is a Democrat. He wants people, he believes that anyone regardless of education is able to reason out certain things by himself. Okay? So try not to be too sophisticated and just ask yourself what's going on here.
The paradox is this. The paradox is that um Sean should not be afraid of God. He should not obey God. But he does obey. Why?
62:36It's a riddle. Yes.
Could it be that he's not actually like um submitting to God but submitting to Virgil? Like because it's Virgil's words, Virgil's command. So
who's speaking? It's Virgil. Do you understand? Do you understand? Doesn't matter what Virgil is saying.
It's Virgil speaking. So Sharon is submitting to Virgil, not to God. You understand? So who's the real master of hell? It's Virgil is the master of hell.
Okay. Here he's telling us here Donn is telling us Virgil is the master of hell. Okay. Yes.
Is that why he chose not to go to heaven?
Exactly. You understand? Do you understand the logic of this? Because you are emperor of hell and you go to hell. Heaven and now you are servant to God.
Does that make sense? Yeah. Because you know from our imagination I thought Lucifer who is the you know the godfather in hell but how how do you say that Virgil or you mean Virgil just is kind of a avatar of a demon or well again this will be revealed to to us over time. Okay but look what we know is Virgil knows hell really really well. Okay?
Because he's able to guide Dante throughout hell. That's number one. Number two is the people in hell seem to obey him. Right? That's number two.
Number three is we know for a fact that he has the option of ascending to heaven, but he chooses not to. Okay? So
64:40again, that is the um so Donn doesn't tell us outright, but he but he forces you to make this conclusion based on what you've read. Okay. Yes.
So I I feel I feel like like there are two things I want to talk about. The first part is in answer to your question about why Virgil is suddenly Satan. Like
I I didn't say Virgil is suddenly S. I said it said that he seems to be master of hell. I was answering the question. I I was saying that it seems like he is an emanation of the primal force of blind obedience that is the master of hell. Like he's just a avatar here.
He's not the actual king of hell. Uh and there is no actual king of hell in physical body down to walk with us. And the
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You you getting it confused theologically.
I uh let's uh move on. I have another question. Uh so uh it's um in this uh interaction between uh Sharon and uh Virgil it is also an indication of basically all the people uh in hell are more obedient than people everywhere else. So it's it's just a reflection of the general passivity of of of people in hell.
Um okay so we we have to be very careful. Okay. Satan is Satan not because he is the paragon of obedience. What is Satan really? What what is his problem?
Yes.
Satan is Lucifer which used to be an angel of music in the heavens and he was more beautiful and talented than all the other angels. So he grew proud and decided to not listen to God.
Exactly. Okay. So the problem is not obedience. The problem is pride. People in hell are distinguished not by their obedience, they're distinguished by their pride.
That's why Chiron is so rude to Dante.
66:41Right. But
but when you're enter hell, don't you have to abandon your pride or your ego?
If you're the soul, right? But Cheron is is like one of the demons of hell. You understand? He's the one who controls hell, right? Right?
So if you're a soul entering hell, you must abandon all hope. You must be completely passive. But the people in charge, right, they're proud. And so what what we will learn as we go on is like there's actually a lot of infighting in hell. Okay?
So maybe certain people obey Virgil, but others don't obey Virgil. Okay? But Virgin doesn't care because he's like, "I rather be emperor of hell than uh servant in heaven." And and and who who else fought this? What who else believed this?
Yeah. Right. Okay. That's why he he's in hell. Yes.
So like this is something I don't get. So like in a historical framework, Virgil is human. Virgil has a soul. And Dante definitely knows that Virgil is human and has a soul. So if he Virgil is down here that means that his soul must have ended up down here.
But you just said that all souls who enter hell must become passive. So why is he being so active now?
Okay. All right. So um in Donny's imagination, Virgil is eternal. He's immortal. Why?
Because people read his poetry, right? So Virgil has become the poem the iniad itself. Virgil is just the expression of the poem the iniad. Okay. Does it make sense?
All right. Um let's like like like like let we have a lot to do. Okay. So so let's keep focused. Let let's just try to get get as much on as we can.
Okay. Let's let's let's go.
Verse 109.
68:42The demon Karen with his eyes like embers by signal into them has all embarked has or his ore strikes anyone who stretches out as in the autumn leaves detach themselves first one and then the other till the bow sees all all its fallen garments on the ground. Similarly the e the evil seed of Adam descended from the shoreline one by one when signaled as a falcon called will come. So do they move across the darkened waters even before they reach the farther shore. New ranks already gather on this bank. My son, the gracious master said to me, those who have died beneath the wrath of God, all these assemble here from every country, and they're eager for the river crossing because celestial justice spurs them on so that their fear is turned into desire.
No good soul ever takes its passage here. Therefore, if Karon has complained of you, by now you can be sure what his words mean.
Okay, so this is a really hard idea for us to appreciate. Okay, but the people in hell when they cross the river, their fear is turned into desire. Okay, so maybe before they enter hell, they didn't really uh understand what hell is. They're they're afraid. They come to the river crossing and like they really want to enter hell.
Okay. So, let's try to figure out what hell really is. And again, it's it's inverse of heaven. Okay. Right.
How is hell the inverse of heaven? What what what's the difference in Dante's conception? Hell is circles. Heaven is fears. Uh yes.
Oh
no. But but but I'm saying let's figure out the governing principles of heaven. Let's figure out the governing principles of hell.
70:44Uh yes.
Um hell is more about obedience which is basically the AniAD and then heaven's more of a reflection of the divine comedy which is creativity um and ego.
Yeah. So the the key is obedience. Okay. If you are someone of pride like Virgil, you need the way to express your pride is if people obey you. You understand?
So hell is a place for two types of people. People who want to control the people and people who want to be controlled. And that's what hell is. And heaven is a place of perfect justice, of free will. Okay?
You are there because you choose to be there and then you choose to submit to God because God is perfect justice and you understand that. Okay. Uh yes.
Uh again, this is something I'm confused about. So uh you said that you chose to submit to God. So, how is you chose to submit to God and you chose to submit to Satan different in in actuality?
Okay. All right. Um, again, we're running out of time, so I'll explain to you really quickly. Okay. You choose God because you have perfect knowledge of the world and you think that God is the best choice.
All right? So, it's one of knowledge. It's one of love. Why did you choose Satan? Because you're afraid.
You don't know anything. you're afraid. You rather give up your free will than to engage in a process of knowledge of of inquiry of learning that enables you to understand the cosmos. That's why you choose Satan because it's the easiest path for you to take. One of obedience is a lot harder than self-doubt, self-discovery, okay?
Debate. Does that make sense,
72:45guys? Okay. If you have perfect knowledge, you're going to choose God. You will I will choose simmit to God if you have perfect knowledge. But that that requires a lifetime of learning of debate of um yes
but how could you give away your free will to Satan? Like if you you if you can give give away God's most precious gift to Satan, then Satan is just as powerful as God
because it's free will. You can do whatever you want.
Yeah. And you can give it away whenever you want.
Yes. That's that's why it's called free will.
Okay.
All right. Let's let's keep on going.
Verse 130. And after this was said, the darkened plane quake so tremendously the memory of terror then bathed me in sweat again. A whirlwind burst out of the tear drenched earth, a wind that crackled with a blood red light. A light that overcame all of my senses. And like a man whom sleep has seized, I fell.
Okay, so this happens a lot. Okay. Basically, Donnie gets blind in heaven and then uh Donnie uh has Caesars uh in uh in uh hell. Okay. You know, you know this this is the interesting um uh question.
Do you think Donnie had epilepsy? You know, that that is a possibility, right? Because back then if you have epilepsy, they they really thought that you were ceased by God and he had these visions, right? Okay. So So that that is a question for us to think about.
We'll never know. But but yeah. Uh yes.
Uh he most likely had shiso because he kept hearing voices talking to him. Yeah.
Oh, okay. And you know for that for a fact.
Well, I know that he dreamt of an entire other personality, Beatress, as an adult, mind you. Not as a kid with imaginary friend. So there's some kind of disorder here.
Okay. Well, clear clearly there's a disorder, but but what what it is, we we we'll never know. Okay. All right. Let's let's keep on going to Kendle four,
74:45please. Kendle four. The heavy sleep within my head was smashed by an enormous thunderclap, so that I started up as one whom force awakens. I stood erect and turned my rested eyes from side to side and I stared steadily to learn what place it was surrounding me. In truth I found myself upon the brink of an abyss.
The melancholy valley containing thundering unending wailings. That valley dark and deep and filled with mist is such that though I gazed into its pit, I was unable to discern a thing. Let us descend into the blind world now. The poet who was deathly pale began. I shall go first and you will follow me.
But I who had seen the change in his complexion said, "How shall I go on if you're frightened, you who have always helped dispel my doubts?" And he to me, "The anguish of the people whose place is here below has touched my face with the compassion you mistake for fear." Let us go on the way that waits long. So he set out and he had meme enter on that first circle girdling the abyss. Here for as much as hearing could discover there was no outcry louder than the size that caused the everlasting air to tremble. The sight arose from sorrow without torments out of the crowds the many multitudes of infants and of women and of men. The kindly master said, "Do you not ask, who are these spirits whom you see before you?
I'd have you know before you go ahead they did not sin and yet though they have merits that's not enough because they lacked baptism the portal of faith that you embrace and if they lived before Christianity they did not worship God in fitting ways and of such spirits I myself am one
76:45for these defects and for no other evil we now are lost and punished just with this we have no hope and yet we live in longing
okay so we are now in limbo okay which is the first circle of hell and limbo. It's actually a very nice place. It's a very nice retiring community. Um but it's not heaven because why why are these people in limbo rather than in heaven? Yeah.
They were not baptized as Christians. Okay. So again, this is Virgil being absolute. What he's saying is like unless you were baptized, you could never ever access heaven. And this this again at this time in history is what the Catholic Church teaches.
Yes.
I like it's Virgil who said that because I'm not a I'm not baptized, I belong here.
Exactly. Okay.
It's him castigating himself, not the laws of the universe, it is it is Virgil.
No, no, no, no, no, no. Virgin is being absolute here.
Oh, he's being absolute here.
Yeah. Yeah. They have merits, but that's never enough. No matter how hard you work, no matter how good you are, no matter how virtuous you are, if you lack baptism, the best place you can hope for is limbo in uh hell. Okay.
Uh yes,
I have a question because uh in the stanzer is that uh people cannot be perfectly uh baptized. What is that mean? If it means [clears throat] that only the baptized may be not enough. It must be baptized perfectly. So what's the difference?
Wait wait wait I where does where what does spir say that?
The the people should be um uh
what line are you referring to?
Perfectly baptized.
What line are you referring to?
Where does it say perfect?
Yesterday. Yesterday we we we saw that.
No no no no. Refer me to the line.
Okay. Okay. I mean today. I can't remember exactly, but
No, no, no, no. Guys, guys, we're
78:47referring to Virgil. You have to like tell me what the line is. Line 35 says what?
Because they lack baptism. There was no perfect word in it.
There's no perfect word here. It's It's that simple. Okay. If you were baptized as a Christian, you are allowed to go to heaven. If you're not baptized, you don't go to heaven.
It's pretty simple. Okay. Uh yes. Yes.
Um so like if we we just talked about the infants, right? And we figure out why they were in heaven despite maybe not being baptized. So like are these all grown people down here? Are there infants in this bunch?
There are infants. That's a question. There are infants in here as well. Okay. There are infants here as well.
And and Donnie will will explain will explain this. All right. Let's keep on going. Line 43. Great sorrow ceased my heart on hearing him for I had seen some estimable men among the souls suspended in that limbo.
Okay. So again, Donnie doesn't understand this. How is it possible that in a just world where God is perfect justice if you are not baptized and and you could be a great man but you can't access heaven. Okay. Um keep on going.
Verse 46. Tell me my master. Tell me Lord. I then began because I wanted to be certain of that belief which vanquishes all errors. Did any ever go by his own merit or others from this place toward blessedness?
And he who understood my covert speech replied, "I was new, entered on the state when I beheld a great Lord enter here. The crown he wore, a sign of victory. He carried off the shade of our first father, of his son Abel, and the shade of Noah, of Moses, the obedient legislator, of father Abraham, David the king, of Israel his father, and his
80:48sons, and Rachel she for whom he worked so long, and many others. He made them blessed and I should have you know that before them there were no human souls that had been saved.
Okay. So Dante asks is there an exception to this? And then um what Virgo says is yes there's only one instance there's only one exception and that's when Jesus came to hell for three days. He took with him all the great souls of the Bible including Adam, Moses, David, everyone. Okay.
uh they were not baptized because they were Israelites. They were they were uh Jews, but because they were so great, uh Jesus forgave them and took them to heaven with him. But that's the only time. That's it. Okay?
And like again, we know this is not going to be true. Over time, as we read Divine Comedy, we're going to find a lot of exceptions actually, but here because uh it's Virgil and because we're just reading Divine Comedy, we think this must be true. Okay. So, so, so we are under the impression that everything he says is the absolute truth. Okay, keep on going.
Verse 64. We did not stay our steps. Although he spoke, we still continued onward through the wood. The wood, I say, where many spirits thronged. Our path had not gone far beyond the point where I had slept when I beheld a fire went out against a hemisphere of shadows.
We still were at a little distance from it, but not so far I could not see in part that honorable men possessed that place. Oh, you who honor art and science both, who are these souls whose dignity has kept their way of being separate from the rest? And he to me, the honor of their name, which echoes up above within your life gains heaven's grace, and that advances them. Meanwhile, there was a voice that I could hear. Pay honor to the estimable poet.
His shadow which had left us now returns. After that voice was done, when there was silence, I saw four giant shades
82:50approaching us. In aspect, they were neither sad nor joyous. My kindly master then began by saying, "Look well at him who holds that sword in hand, who moves before the other three as lord. That shade is Homer, the consmate poet. The other one is Horus.
Satirist. The third is Avid and the last is Lucan. Because of each of these spirits shares with me the name called out before by the lone voice. They welcome me and doing that do well. And so I saw that splendid school assembled led by the Lord of song incomparable who like an eagle soarses above the rest.
Soon after they had talked a while together, they turned to me saluting cordially. And having witnessed this, my master smiled. An even greater honor than was mine, for they invited me to join their ranks. I was the sixth among such intellects.
So Donn is saying that he is in the pantheon of the greatest poets. Okay, keep on going.
Line 103. So did we move along and toward the light, talking of things about which silence here is just as seemly as our speech was there. We reached the base of an exalted castle encircled seven times by towering walls defended all around by a fair stream. We forted this as if upon hard ground. I entered seven portals with these sages.
We reached a meadow of green flowering plants. The people here had eyes both grave and slow. Their features carried great authority. They spoke infrequently with gentle voices. We drew aside to one part of the meadow, an open place both high and filled with light, and we could see all those who were assembled.
Facing me there on the enameled green. Greatarted souls were shown to me, and I still glory in my having witnessed them. I saw Electra with her many comrades, among whom I knew Hector and Anias, and Caesar in his armor falconeyed.
[snorts]
I saw Camila and Pen Penthicia and on
84:51the other hand on the other side saw King Latinas who sat beside Levvenia his daughter. I saw that Brutus who drove Tark went out Lricia Julia Marsh and Cornelia and Solitary set apart Zadden. When I had raised my eyes a little higher and saw the master of the men who know seated in philosophic family. There I'll look up. There I'll look up to him.
I'll do honor. I'll do him honor. There I beheld both Socrates and Plato. Closest to him in front of all the rest. Democrus who ascribes the world to chance.
Dioynes and Piticles and Zeno and Thalus and Anaxagorus Heraclitus. I saw the good collector of medicinals. eyes mean Dioscordis and I saw Orpheus and Tuli Lunus Moral Senica and Uklit the geometer and Hypocrates Hypocrates and Gallen Avisa Averos of the great commentary
Aina and Avarles are Muslims okay these are the great Muslim intellectuals of the Islamic golden age uh keep on going
I cannot hear describe them all in full. My ample theme impels me onward, so what's told is often less than the event. The company of six divides into me knowing guide leads me another way beyond the quiet into trembling air. And I have reached a part where no things gleams.
Okay. All right. Stop. Okay. All right.
So, what I'll do now is compare and contrast heaven and hell. Okay. Um at the very top of heaven is of course is the imperium, right? The imperium. And the imperium um is where God is.
And for beside God is the red rose, okay? Like the stadium
86:52where the greatest souls of humanity reside next to God. The queen is Mary. But then uh sitting beside Mary is Eve and you have Anna who is Mary's mother. You have Beatatrice. You you have Rachel.
You have Rebecca. You have Lucia. Okay. Okay. That is the highest level of um heaven.
Now in inferno which is hell the highest level is actually limbo right? Because we're descending downwards. Okay. So the highest level is actually limbo. And in limbo we have the greatest heroes, thinkers, poets of humanity.
Okay? We have Julius Caesar, we have uh um we have Homer, we have Socrates, we have Plato, we have all the greatest heroes of humanity. Can someone explain to me why this is constructed the way it is? What is Donnie saying here? because they didn't believe in God or they didn't uh they weren't Christian.
Yeah, that's what Virgil says, right? But we know Virgil is not a reliable narrator. We have to use our own logic. We have to like really think about the cosmology at work here. Okay.
Uh did did you have a question or comment?
Yeah, because just now you said that the great hero who just live in limbo, right? because maybe they just uh they're just just great hero, you know, because they they don't need to love God or maybe they they don't even know the God. They just
I Yes, I I I know that's what Virgil says. Okay. But but what I'm trying to tell you is that Virgil lies all the time. And what we know Yes.
Uh I think these people in hell live through ego and so they wanted to be on top of everyone whereas in Paradise they are within God. So they're in the center. Right. No. Okay.
So, so what you're
88:53saying is that the people in limbo, people like Julius Caesar, Homer are selfish who want glory. And the people in heaven, people like Mary, uh, Rachel, they are without ego. I is that what you're trying to say?
Uh, it was more about like how you consider yourself. I think like in hell, you're above everyone. you want to be like in control and like have the level of hierarchy where yeah you're just like superior to them whereas in uh the paradise you're within God so like you're inside of him you're in the center of him and you're all loving so it's not about like rank or anything
okay yeah so so that's one explanation where um the people in hell this limbo they are trying to win glory for themselves whereas as in heaven, these people uh whether it's Anna, Mary, uh Lucia, Beatatrice, or Rachel, they're trying to spread love in the world. Okay. Yeah, that's that's one possibility. Yes.
These people seem to be the smartest, strongest, most powerful people. And so in limbo, yes, they are.
And so that seems to be saying that you can't force open the gates of heaven with your logic, with your strength, with your power.
Exactly. Yeah, that that's also another possibility. Okay. Yes.
Or maybe because they they devoted their lifetime into doing great things and then they're selfless and then they still have the hope that they could potentially save the people in help. Is that a possibility?
Could you repeat that? I'm not I'm not sure I understand what
I'm saying like when they were alive they devoted their lifetime into doing something great that like for example the poets acknowledge people of more knowledge and then maybe they just chose to be in hell because they still have the hope that they could potentially
90:54inspire or save some of the people over there.
Uh no actually I I I I don't Yeah.
Yeah. because uh before Christianity uh all of the great hero would just been born. So yeah this that's why they did putting them into limbo because this is before that right before the Christianity which has been born. Okay again like we're trying to understand Dante and one way to understand Dante is to use your imagination and create contrast. Okay.
So um Dante puts Mary, Eve, Beatatrice, Anna, Rachel, and Lucia at the very top. Okay. They are the greatest heroes. Yes.
Paradise is all ladies or women and then here is mostly great men. And I think maybe some qualities that he sees in them that separates the sexes. So like the women are more submissive. They worship God. They are not willing to be the center.
by these men they laid down the foundation of intellectual world on earth. So they are the centralized either power, authority or foundation. So they didn't want to center around God like revolve around God.
Well, okay. Okay. So So um I I need to correct her. Okay. These women are not submissive.
Beatric is not submissive. Rachel is not submissive. Rebecca is not submissive. They're all very strong uh women. Okay.
All right. So, so I want to do this exercise. If you were asked to pick people who should be beside God in Imperium, okay, who would you pick? No, no, no, no, no. Be be these people are pagans, right?
Who would you pick? Well, Homer is a pagan. I'm just saying like like if if you if you just talk to any Christian and like, okay, like who
92:54should be next to God? What names would you come up with?
H
Augustine.
Excuse me.
Augustine.
Okay. Augustine. Jesus. Uh Jesus. Yes.
I think I think you need to pick people who are pleasing to God. Like we have to consider God's role in all.
Who is the most pleasing to God? David. Okay. Why is David not on this list? It's David.
If you read the Bible, it's like David. Okay. David has to be number one more than Jesus. Do you understand? If you read the Bible, it's David who's the most pleasing to God.
That's why Israel is called the kingdom of David. Okay? So, it's David that in the Jewish tradition, who who's even actually more important than David?
Moses.
Thank you. Why is Moses not on this list? Right? So, you need David, you need Moses, you need Jesus, you can argue about Augustine. Okay.
Who else would you have?
Elijah.
Thank you. Yes, Elijah. Right. Because Elijah, guys, actually ascended to heaven to be with God. Who else?
Yes, Noah. Right. Who else? Abraham. Thank you.
Because Abraham is a father of all three faiths. Christianity, uh, Islam and and and and Judaism. Okay. Why are they not on the list? None of them are.
This is all very confusing. Do you understand? This creates a huge paradox for us. Why? Okay.
In limb we we understand Julius Caesar, Homer, uh the greatest thinkers, her heroes of antiquity. Yes, we understand that. But if that's the case, then logically in the imperium next to God should be David. He should be number one. Then it should be uh Moses, Abraham, Elijah.
Um you can also say Enoch. Okay, if some of you know your Bible, Enoch should be on the list as well, right? Because
94:55Enoch was the first to ascend to heaven. So, what's going on here? Do you understand? If we are to um create parallelism in structure, then if the people in limbo are the greatest of integrity, then in heaven, it should be the greatest of the Bible, right? But it's not.
It's people who are barely mentioned in the Bible. Mary, um, Rebecca, Rachel, and Anna, Anna's not even in the Bible. Okay. Beatric is definitely not in the Bible. Okay.
So, what's going on here? anyone?
I don't know. Maybe because they don't really love uh God. They just obedience to God. It doesn't mean they love God.
Oh, David do loves God. Okay. David loves God. And again, this all what the Bible teaches you. Okay.
If you're a Christian, then you know God loves David the most and David loves God the most. Uh yes. Could it be like
on earth they had a form of power and power corrupts?
Okay, that is uh true. But but but but I mean like Moses, Noah, Abraham, Elijah, we all know their stories, right?
Yes.
I think he didn't put like too high figures so as like readers we don't compare ourselves to them and so it gives us access to heaven.
Thank you. Yes. Do you understand? First and foremost, what makes Donnie democ like the revolution is his democratic nature. Do you understand?
Okay. Democratic
96:55and egalitarian. If you are to create a world of love, you need these two principles. Democratic and egalitarian. Okay. The people in integrity, right, in limbo, Julius Caesar.
Who among us can be Julius Caesar? None of us. Okay. But who among us can be uh Beatatrice or Anna or Rachel or Lucia? Well, any one of us.
It's just our choice to make the Julius Caesar. The things that allow him to be Julius Caesar are unique, right? Who can be a Homer? No one except Homer. Who can be a Dante?
No one. Okay. But we can all choose to be a good person. And if we choose to be a good person, we will impact the world, the people around us and be next to God. Do you understand?
So um usually poetry is written to put you in awe to make you fear, right? That's what the idiot is about. But divine comedy is most is meant to inspire you to ascend to greater heights, not just like the educated. It's like anyone. That's why Divine Comedy was written in Tuskin, Italian, not Latin.
Because Latin is a language of the elite. Tuskin is a language of anyone and everyone. Okay. Okay. Does that make sense?
Okay. So again, uh yes. Um, I just can't understand why if this book is meant to be democratic, why does it have so many references? Like, it's really hard to read if you don't know anything about the Bible or everyone he's talking about.
Yeah, that's a great question. Okay. All right. [clears throat] So, um, first of all, I hate to say this, but people back here in the year 1300, they're probably more educated than than than we are today. Okay?
It's hard for us to read, but back then, if you're
98:57educated, uh, you had access to a very wide classical education. Okay, I I know this is not what you're taught in school. You're taught that, oh, back there people are living in the dark ages, they have no books. That's not true. Okay, you know, it's not true because of Dante.
If like back then you have any access to this knowledge, how could he have written this? Okay, so back then the most people didn't have access to education. Most people could only go to church, but for the elite, for people of a certain background, the middle class, basically, you had access to much wider education than you have today. Okay, that's uh point one. Point two is like the divine is meant to be an infinite universe onto itself.
It's a me it's meant for a place to explore um for the rest of your life. So having these different references, it's almost incentivizing you to do research on your own. Does that make sense? Right? Because like he doesn't want a situation where you just read it once, you're like, "Okay, I got I got it.
Thank you very much." No, he wants you to keep on going back and thinking about it, exploring it in order to fully uh appreciate it. Okay? And and the way he does that is through beauty, right? I mean, it's it's like Leonardo da Vinci painting the Mon the Mona Lisa, right? It's not like you go like, "Oh, all right." No, you want it in your house so you can look at it every day for the rest of your life because it's so beautiful, right?
And the more you look at it, the more complexity, the more nuance, the more subtlety you see in the Mona Lisa. Does that make sense? Okay. So, that's the intention. Okay.
All right. But but yeah, I mean like like like it's a very common misunderstanding like during the dark ages they lost the Greeks, they lost integrity and so uh they had to bring it back from the Islamic world. That's not true at this
100:57like and and just think about this how in any society the the elite are educated educated differently from the common people right this is true history the elite are going to have more access to education than uh the common people mainly through tutors right mainly through tutors okay all right is that clear guys all right uh let let's let's continue yes
like this is something I wonder about since you started reading all these names. So like if Dante is operating in the spirit of Renaissance humanism, if he is bringing back the Greeks, even though you said that's not entirely true, but let's say that he is bringing back the Greeks, why is he condemning all of these Greek heroes, all of these ancient heroes to hell?
They're not in hell. They're in limbo.
Well, they are kind of in hell. You just said that limbo is a part of hell.
Virgil already told us, right? They are there because they lack the Christian faith.
Virgil, what Virgil said wasn't true.
Right? And so [clears throat] you can choose in limbo to adopt the Christian faith. Do you understand? And when you read the Divine Comedy, you will find certain individuals who do do that. Um um Ko, but but that that's that's when we get to purgatory.
Okay. You will find that there are certain individuals who should be in limbo but because of their own choice they they adopted the Christian faith they ascended to purgatory and even one uh Rifius will ascend to heaven. Okay. All right. Let's keep on going.
Count five. KTO five. So I descended from the first enclosure down to the second circle. That which girdles less space but grief more great. that goats to weeping.
There dreadful Mino stands nashing his teeth, examining
102:59the sins of those who enter. He judges and assigns and his as his tail twine. I mean that when the spirit born to evil appears before him, it confesses all and he the connoisseur of sin can tell the depth and hell appropriate to it. As many times as Minos wraps its tail around himself, that marks the sinner's level. Always there's a crowd that stands before him.
Each soul in turn advances toward that judgment. They speak and hear, then they're cast below, arresting his extraordinary task. Minos, as soon as he had seen me, said, "Oh, you who reached his house is suffering, be careful how you enter whom you trust. The gate is wide, but do not be deceived."
Okay, this is like really interesting, right? So Mino's the the monitor what what he's doing is he's assigning people to hell. Okay. Mino sees Dante and Virgil and he says, "Uh, be careful who you enter. Be careful who you trust.
Do not be deceived." What is he referring to?
Don't trust a virginally.
Yeah. Okay. I I I would think that because think about this logically. He's saying like don't trust anyone in hell. I'm done.
Like I'm going to trust anyone in hell. Thank you very much. Who's the only person who can possibly trust? And it's Virgil, right? He's saying don't trust anyone.
Okay? So it's a direct reference to Virgil. Okay? But it's impossible to see because it's a paradox for you, right? Uh and so and and so and so again, it's all nuance.
It's all subtlety. Because um I'm not sure if you ever had if you ever try to convince someone right of anything um um I mean you you you probably know this right right Carol where like like if you know your sons are doing anything bad if you tell them directly they they'll just keep on doing that crap right but you have to do it in
105:00a very nuanced way you have to nudge that person right and and this is this is what's happening here in comedy where Don is nudging us right like okay I understand Virgil is gone, but you know, maybe he's not that honest. Okay, it's all nudging. It's all nuance. It's all subtlety. Okay, let's keep on going.
Line 21. To which my guide replied, but why protest? Do not attempt to block his faded path. Our passage has been willed above where one can do what he has willed and ask no more.
Yeah, you see how Virgil gets angry now, right? Because Virgil knows Minos is telling Donnie, "Don't trust Virgil." And like Virgil saying to him, "Shut up, man."
Okay.
Yes.
Is Is Minos the Minotaur or the King of Creed?
Yes. Yes.
I thought he was like the king of Cre I just don't know why he's turned into a monster.
No. No. Uh Minos is not the No. King Minos is the king of Cre, right? The monitor is the um is the monster that that that protects the labyrinth.
So this is the monitor. Okay, let's uh go on verse 25. Now notes of desperation have begun to overtake my hearing. Now I come where mighty lamentation beats against me. I reached a place where every light is muted, which bellows like the sea beneath the tempest when it is battered by opposing winds.
The hellish hurricane which never rests, strives on the spirits with its violence, wailing and pouting it in harasses them. When they come up against the ruined slope, then their cries and wailing and lament, and there they curse the force of the divine. I learned that those who undergo this torment are damned because they sinned within the flesh, subjecting
107:01reason to the rule of lust. And as in the cold season darling's wings bear them along in broad and crowded ranks, so does that blast bear on the guilty spirits. Now here now there, now down, now up, it drives them. There's no hope that ever comforts them. No hope for rest and none for lesser pain.
And just as cranes in flight will chant their lays array their long file across the air. So did the shades I saw approaching borne by that assailing wind lament and moan. So that I asked him, "Master, who are those who suffer punishment in this dark air?"
Okay, so we're in the first c first circle of hell. Okay, like we we left limbo uh and and now we are in hell where proper where everyone's being punished. Okay, in the first um circle, these are people who lust. And the great thing about Dante is he's so imaginative like everyone who is guilty of a particular sin has deserves has a just punishment in hell. Okay.
So these are people who lust which means that they constantly change their emotions. Right? So the punishment is they're being whipped around in a whirlwind. Okay. Right.
So they are never they are they are not loyal to their own emotions and now they're just being whooped around in in a whirlwind. Okay. Does that make sense? Okay. All right.
Let's keep on going. Line 52. the first of those about whose history you want to know. My master then told me once ruled as empress over many nation. Her vice of lust became so customary that she made license listed in her laws to free her from the scandal she had caused.
She Seuramis of whom we read that he was Nunis's wife and his successor. He helped the land the Sultan
109:02now commands. The other spirit killed herself for love and she betrayed the ashes of Sikius. The wanting Cleopatra follows next. See Helen, for whose sake so many years of evil had to pass. See great Achilles, who finally met love in his last battle.
Okay. All right. So, something that um is confusing for people is that Dante does not have access to Homer and the Greeks. Okay. Um and so when you talk about Achilles, he's not talking about Achilles from the Iliad.
He's talking about Achilles from other uh mythologies written in Latin. Okay. So this is why it's a bit confusing for people. All right. So um something really uh you guys need need to appreciate is what Virgil is doing is he's naming these individuals in this circle of lust.
And there's one person he doesn't name. The other spirit killed herself for love and she betrayed the ashes of Psychius. Okay, he doesn't name this person, but he does name Cleopatra. He names Helen, names Achilles, he names Sarah Ramas. Okay, so there's a thousand people.
There's only one person he does not he does not name. Does anyone know who this person is who killed herself for love and she betrayed her husband? Sarakias do.
It's Ditto. Okay, it's Ditto. Who created Ditto? Virgil.
Virgil. Okay. So, again, it's so interesting um the contrast, right? Because you have two great poets uh in the line comedy. They are of course Virgil and Dante.
[snorts] Virgil and Dante. And both of them will create two great
111:02female protagonists that are celebrated throughout history. Virgil will create Ditto and Donna will create Beatatric. If you read the Iniad, and we will read the Iniad actually later this afternoon, parts of it. Okay. What Virgil does is he condemns Ditto to hell.
And then what Donnie does is beat he will elevate Beatric to heaven. Okay. So there's abely no way that Dante admires Virgil, right? I mean, he may have read uh Virgil and be heavily influenced by Virgil, but ultimately embedded within the Divine Comedy is this cosmic battle between Virgil and Dante. Okay, we know because of how they treat their different um heroes.
All right. And um um actually we're running out of time. So but I what what I want to do is read certain passages of the Iniad. Okay. So you can see who Ditto is and we can contrast this with how Dante treats Beatatric.
All right. Uh but are there any questions about uh Yes,
I collect two questions from online participants.
Okay. Uh the first one is could dentist whole journey be read as the movement from fragmentation to coherence. Uh hell is equal to misaligned desire. Part uh partic uh purgatory uh is uh like purified desire. Paradise is something like individual will uh fully aligned with the dean order.
113:03That that is a great point. Yes, it is a journey and it's one from uh disunityity to one of unity. Okay. And and it's obvious because hell everyone's fighting each other. Okay?
Even though V Virgil is kind of in charge, not everyone obeys him and there's all of a trill going on, right? So Mos is saying Dante, hey this guy, Virgil, don't trust him. And Virgil's like, "Shut up." Okay? And we we'll see a lot of this disunityity in hell. But when we go to heaven, we will see that it is we we've been to heaven and like so we know it is coherent.
We we know that is unified and everyone's speaking with one voice. Okay. On behalf of God. Yes.
The other question is uh could an afterlife of complete nothingness for eternity be the worst version of hell?
Uh could you repeat that? I I I didn't catch that. Could an afterlife of complete nothingness for eternity be the worst version of hell?
After nothing
afterlife
of complete nothingness
of complete what? How do you spell that word?
Nothing.
Nothing. Yes.
Would the afterlife be nothingness in eternity? Be the worst version of hell.
Be the worst version of hell.
No Wi-Fi.
Um, so um, okay. So there are two conceptions of of hell, right? Hell as a place where you feel nothing, where nothing happens. It's just complete absence. people forget who you are.
You You cease to exist. [clears throat] And hell is a place where people are
115:03being punished for uh things that they did uh for all of eternity. What do you think is worse?
Uh yeah, is much worse than just being annalated. I think the person is saying annihilation of the soap like you just go into nothing but then you don't get punished for anything you did in on earth. So I think suffering in hell would be much worse.
Uh yes you you said the first one.
Yeah. I think I think I mean like at least in the second one you're being tortured, right? You got something to do with you can and you can still feel I feel like the first one you can you can you literally can feel nothing. and I will choose the second over the first one.
Uh, yes.
I feel like this kind of sounds like the layer where like the unbaptized are in because they're basically sighing and then like they're they don't receive physical punishment,
you know, that's a really um uh No, no, no, no. I mean, like L limbo is is basically like a very nice place. Okay. It's not a punishment. Okay.
All right. Um, uh, yes.
Yeah. Yeah. I think the, uh, limbo is kind of thing just like waiting room, right? You don't know what happened.
No, it's not a waiting room. It's a retirement community.
Okay.
It's a very nice retirement. That's like literally what it is. Okay. Yes.
So, um, Augustine would say that in hell you still have your ego and your ego, this is the Schopenhauer idea, the will to live. Yeah. So, the ego refuses to give up no matter what. So in in hell, they couldn't even wrap their mind around this idea of of an ether of an annihilation because you're going to be somewhere.
And so if they don't, they're in hell because they are turning away from God. They would they would feel
whatever. They don't want to be near God. And so they're in hell because it's the furthest place from God, but they
117:03don't want to be nothing because they still want to be an ego.
Yeah. So this is a really hard problem to solve. Um because I think intuitively being annalated, being lost forever, like people don't remember who you are, it's actually the worst thing because even if you're in hell, there is a bit of hope, right? Um it is you're still part of the cosmos, but to be annalated means that your soul is now not dissipated. It's like you you're gone forever.
Okay. So I so so I I would agree with that thought like the idea of annihilation is the worst possible thing to happen and how do you live a life of annihilation? What leads you to to annihilation? So bring back this this Dante. What allows you to to be forgotten?
Come on. Yes.
Send you anywhere? Oh or you lost your ego completely? You don't want you want to know why you forgot it. No one loves you.
That's not because no one loves you.
You're not living by the principle of ulamonia and arity. Okay?
Because you've lived a pointless life. You understand? Because your life you just chose the easiest thing to do. No one remembers who you are. Maybe your family does, but over time your family will will will forget who you are.
Okay. So um it's implied um in the line comedy that most of us will be annihilated. Okay? Most of us won't even make it to hell because you you you needed to do something with your life to make it to hell. And if you did nothing in your life, then that's actually worse than hell.
You'll just be forgotten. And in fact um if you read the divine comedy very closely um there are certain individuals that you think should appear in a certain
119:03place but doesn't and that's a very powerful technique that Dante uses in order to criticize certain individuals. Okay. Okay. So, for example, um in uh heaven, yes, I understand uh um uh David should be next to uh God, but he's not next to God. He is in heaven, but he's not next to God.
Um and and and he he'll be using that a lot. Another thing is remember the person that uh Donna is is most responding to is Augustine. and Augustine is never quoted in the divine comedy, right? It's almost a form of annihilation. Uh did you have a question?
Okay. All right. Okay. So, yeah. So, that's something that Don will will tell us.
Okay. You have a responsibility to live your life to the fullest because if you don't, you'll be forgotten and that's even worse than hell. Okay. It's complete annalation. Okay.
All right. Uh thank you uh to the live stream for these two two questions. We'll come back in an hour. Okay. All right.
So welcome back. [clears throat] And uh to start class, I want to emphasize a point which is at the very heart of the line comedy is a radical democratic spirit. So if we look at hell, it's basically a um allegory of the world he's living in, right? where everyone's fighting for power and where um everyone uh is obedient and passive and afraid. Um so hell is the best description of the world he's living in.
And for Dante, the answer is um a radical democracy in which everyone has access to knowledge and to learning. for Dante. Uh it doesn't matter who you
121:03are. It doesn't matter what the results are, what you achieve. What matters is how you choose to live your life. That's why at the very at the very top of heaven are people like ROF, uh Rachel, Anna, ordinary people who didn't really accomplish much, but who chose to live a life of faith, hope, and love. And that's what he's trying to she's trying to do.
He's trying to inspire people to live their best life um regardless of their circumstance. And the divine comedy that the the reason why there's so many references embedded in the the divine comedy is an act of faith telling people listen all the knowledge you need to understand God is in here. If you make the effort, if you act with faith, love, and hope you will be able to access heaven yourself. Okay? So that that that at the very heart of the divine harmony is a democratic spirit.
This goes against the elitist mentality of the iniad where the principal virtue that the iniad is trying to convey is piety, obedience. Don't think for yourself. Don't trust your intuition. Just obey the um word of God. Just do what the gods tell you and things will turn out proper.
Okay. So, um the Iniad it's really a struggle of one hero Inas to discover this truth to discover that it's your emotions, your intuition, your imagination that leads you astray. What sets you on the straight path is obedience to uh the gods. Okay. Piety.
So how the iniat starts is um Troy's destroy because of the Trojan horse and Inas who loves Troy wants to
123:04um rescue his people but the the Greeks are so dominant right and so Venus his mother parish says there's a mission for you and your miss and the mission is to take your son to Italy and you will and your family will build the empire of Rome and Inas um um obeys. He sees Helen of Troy and he thinks that it's Helen of Troy that's caused all his misery. So so what this is I mean and I mean the thing about the iniad is it's explicit. Okay, it's very hard to interpret the Iniad incorrectly. Um but the idea is that Helen Troy caused all this destruction which means that love caused all this destruction, right?
This is love is a disease that destroys civilization. Um and then Inas obeys and returns home and him and his family are escaping. They're going to ships and his wife Kisha decides to kill herself. Why? Because Creia understands that um in Italy Inas must marry into royal lo local royalty in order to found a new dynasty.
So she must kill herself in order to make this possible. So that's what wives should do. If the husband needs to like you know marry her up then like you should just like you know kill yourself right. Um now Inias goes to Italy but the queen of the gods uh Hera um she's called Jo in the Iniad because of Latin she's she he's she's angry at Inas and she plots to destroy him. Okay so like right away you understand all the chief villains in the Iniad are female.
Okay, whether it's Helen McCroy, whether it's Jove. Um, [snorts] and so Inas gets shipwrecked in Carthage. And there he meets the local
125:05queen Ditto. And Ditto falls in love with him. He falls in love with her. And Inas just wants to settle down in Carthage and live a happy life. The gods get really angry at him and says, "Indius, you We gave you a simple mission.
Go to Italy. What are you doing here in Carthage?" And Inas obeys. and Ditto is heartbroken and she's so heartbroken that um she kills herself. Okay, for but before she kills herself she makes a vow and her vow is we the Carthan genians will always try to destroy Rome. Okay, because it has broke my heart and so my as I die my final wish to my people is to always set war on Rome.
This is important because historically Rome will destroy Carthage, right? But what uh Virgil is saying is well the blame isn't us Romans. The blame is Ditto because she's this crazy Okay? And love is just a disease. All right?
So again, thematically it's not that hard to interpret um the Iniad. and the Iniad becomes a basis for Western civilization for about a thousand years uh until the rise of Dante. So what I want to do is I want to read certain passages from the Iniad. Okay. So uh we're going to uh so let me set the scene.
Um Ditto and Inas already married. They already had sex. They're betrod to each other. And the gods tell Inas, you have to uh go to Italy. So Inias being a guy decides, "Oh, I'll just sneak sneak away.
Okay, I'm not a tell ditto. I'm going to sneak away." But she's queen of Carthage and she kind of figures out very quickly. Oh, Inas is trying to sneak away. He's trying to run away. Okay, so she confronts Inias and
127:06this is what she says. Okay.
At last, she sails the ears before [clears throat] he said he said a word. So you traitor, you really believe you'd keep this a secret, this great outrage, steal away in silence from my shores. Can nothing hold you back? Not our love, not the pledge when sealed with our right hands. Not even the thought of dedo doomed to acrue death.
Why labor to rig your fleet when the winter's raw to risk the deep when the north winds closing in? You cruel, heartless, even if you were not pursuing alien fields and unknown homes, even if ancient Troy were standing still. Who would sail for Troy across such heaving seas? You're running away from me. Oh, I pray you by these tears, by the faith in your right hand.
What else have I left myself in all my pain? By our wedding vows, the marriage we began. If I deserve some decency from you now, if anything mine has ever won your heart, pity a great house about to fall. I pray you if prayers of any place reject these this scheme of yours. Thanks to you, the African tribes, Numidian warlords hate me.
Even my own Tyrions rise against me. Thanks to you, my sense of honor is gone. Me one and only pathway to the stars, the renown I once held dear. In whose hands my guest you leave me here to meet my death.
Okay. So, Ditto is a marshing any and says like I love you. I give you everything. Okay. I am all yours and you choose to run away.
Once you are gone, I will have no honor. Everyone will laugh at me. They will come and they will all these different warlords that once were afraid of me. The warrior queen. Uh they will come and they will kill me.
They will steal my throne. They'll probably rape me. Okay, so pity me. Okay, it's it's one of anger, but also one of pity.
129:07All right. Uh, let's continue.
Guest, that's all that remains of husband now. But why do I linger on until my brother picon batters down my walls or Yarbas drags me off his slave? If only you'd left a baby in my arms, our child before you deserted me. some little Anias playing about our halls whose features at least would bring you back to me in spite of all. I would not feel so totally devastated, so destroyed.
So, she's lost all her honor. She's lost um her pride. She's lost even her ego. She's begging him like, "If you're going to run away, at least impregnate me so that at least I have a memory of you." Okay, that's how desperate and pitiful she's become. Um, given this, if you're any how should you respond if you were in a situation?
Okay. How how well how should you respond? Well, the human response is to try to comfort her, right? To say, you know, I'm sorry. I love you, but the gods gave me this mission.
I'm afraid of the gods, and so I'll come back or something. Okay, but you make something up, right? Um, but Inas doesn't do that. Okay, let's let's keep on going. The queen stopped, but he, warned by Jupiter, now his gaze held steady, fought to master the torment in his heart.
At last he ventured a few words. I, you have done me so many kindnesses, and you could count them all. I shall never deny what you deserve, my queen. never regret my memories of ditto. Not while I can recall myself and draw the breath of life.
I'll state my case in a few words. I never dreamt I'd keep my flight a secret. Don't imagine that. Nor did I once extend a bridegroom's torch
131:07or enter into a marriage pack with you.
Right. All right. Sorry. So, um he's lying. Okay.
First of all, he did marry uh her and also he is trying to keep his escape a secret. Okay. So the guy's act is an but he's also a manipulator. Keep on going. He's gaslighting her basically.
If the fates had left me free to live my life, to arrange my own affairs of my own free will. Troy is the city first of all that I'd safeguard. Troy and all that's left of my people whom I cherish. The grand palace of Pam would stand once more. With my own hands I would fortify a second Troy to house my Trojans in defeat.
But not now Paul's oracle says that I must seize on Italy's noble land. His Lysian lot said say Italy there lies my love. There lies my homeland. Now if you a Phoenician fix your eyes on Carthage, a Libyan stronghold. Tell me why do you grudge the Trojans their new homes on Italian soil?
What is the crime if we seek far off kingdoms too?
Okay, so this great hero Inias, he's just an abusive right? Because he's telling her um he's gaslighting her first of all, but he's also saying like if I had a choice, if it were really my choice, I wouldn't even be with you, okay? I'd be back in Troy some doing something. Okay, that that's my that's where my heart is. So, it's the gods who forced me to come here.
It's the gods that forced me to go to Troy. It were actually it were my choice, I wouldn't I would not even want you. Okay. Uh so, of course, yeah, he's an Thank you. I know.
Uh but this is the this is the iniad. Um and so, uh D um spends her all her time in her room and she's not able to sleep. Okay. And so she commits on a path to suicide. Okay.
So, so can you can you read
133:09Torn in spirit did I will not dissolve into sleep. Her eyes her mind won't yield tonight. Her torments multiply over and over. Her passion surges back into heaving waves of rage. He she keeps on brooding.
Obsessions royal her heart. And now what shall I do? Make a mockery of myself? Go back to my old suitors. Tempt them to try again.
Back the Numidians gravel plead for a husband. though time and again I scorn to what they're like.
Okay, sorry. Um, sorry. So, some background. Okay, so Ditto is from Phoenicia and she lost a power struggle against her brother. Her brother killed her husband Sakius.
Ditto escapes to Carthage and she builds this great city Carthage and all the local warlords, African warlords admire her and uh the legend is they propose marriage to her. In response, she decides to kill herself. Okay, she builds a p and she burns herself alive. Uh, and she becomes in the eye of the carpets the great warrior queen. Okay, someone who loves her husband so much, someone who loves her people so much that she would rather die than yield than surrender and and because of her of her example, because of her legacy, she becomes um the founder of the greatest empire of Africa at this time.
Okay. So, this is how Ditto is remembered historically. And what Virgil is doing is she he's changing the legacy of Ditto to make her this pathetic um you know, betrayed uh woman. Okay, keep on going.
What then? Trail the Trojan ships bent to the Trojans's every last demand. So pleased are they with all the help, the relief I lent them once. And memory of my service past stands firm in grateful minds. And even if I were willing, would the Trojans allow me to board their proud ships?
A woman they hate? Poor
135:09lostful. Can't you sense it? Grasp it yet. The treachery of La Medan's breed. What now?
Do I take flight alone, consorting with crews of Trojan orsmen and their triumph? Or follow follow them out with all my troops of Tyrion thronging the decks? Yes. Hard as it was to uproot them once from tire, how can I force them back to sea once more? Command them to spread their sails to the winds.
No. No. Die. You deserve it. End your pain with the sword.
You, my sister, you were the first one over by my tears to pile these sorrows on my shoulders. Mad as I was to throw me into my enemy's arms. If only I'd been free to live my life. Untested in marriage, free of guilt as some wild beast, untouched by panks like these. I broke the faith.
I swore to the ashes of Zikius.
Okay, so as you can see, she is completely insane now. Okay, she's she uh love has driving her insane. So again, the idea here is that love is a curse. It's a disease. You fall to it and your mind will shatter.
Okay. So, she's basically decided to cure herself and she wants to kill herself in a way that Inas will see because what her last will is is to be be remembered by Inas, right? And the way that the way that she's going to force her memory onto Inas is to kill herself in front of him. The gods know that what her what her intention is. So, they warn Inas like, "Get out of here now.
like do not observe her dab because that it will haunt you for the rest of your life. Okay. Uh keep on reading. Such terrible grief kept breaking from her heart as Anas leapt in peace on his ship's high stern. Bent on departing now all tackle set to sail.
And now in his dreams it came again. The god his
137:10phantom. The same features shining clear like mercury head to foot. the voice, the glow, the golden hair, the bloom of youth on his limbs, and his voice rang out with warnings once again. Son of the goddess, how can you sleep so soundly in such a crisis?
So, while um Ditto is going crazy and she's lamenting, what is Inas doing right now?
He's sound asleep, man. He doesn't He could care less, man. I keep on going. Can't you see the dangers closing around you now, mad man? Can't you hear the west wind ruffling to speed you on?
That woman spawns her plots, mulling over some desperate outrage in her heart, lashing her surging rage. She's bent on death. Why not flee headlong? Flee headlong while you can. You'll soon see the waves, a chaos of ships, lethal torches flaring, the whole coast ablaze.
If now a new dawn breaks and finds you still mingering on these shores. Up with you now. Enough delay. Woman's a thing that's always changing shifting like the wind. With that he vanished into the black night.
Then terrified by the sudden phantom and wrenching himself from sleep leaps up and rouses his crews and spurs them head headlong on. Quick up and at it. Shipmates man the thwarts spread canvas fast. A gods come down from the sky once more. I've just seen him urging us on to sever our mooring cables.
Sail at once. We follow you, blessed God. Whoever you are, glad at heart, we obey your commands once more. Now help us. Stand beside us with all your kindness.
Bring us favoring stars in the sky to blaze our way.
Okay, so again, Inias has been warned by the god. So he's fle fled the scene. Ditto has committed to killing herself and she will make a final prayer before she kills herself. Okay. Uh, can you read please?
139:13That is my prayer, my final cry. I pour it out with my own lifeblood. And you, my Tyans, Harry with hatred, all his lie, his race to come. Make that offering to my ashes. Send it down below.
No love between our peoples ever. No packs of peace. Come rising up from my bones, you avengers still unknown to stop those Trojan settlers. Hunt with fire and iron now or in time to come whenever the power is yours. Shore clash with shore, sea against sea, and sword against sword.
This is my curse. War between all our peoples, all their children, endless war.
Okay. So, one of the great tragedies of antiquity is the destruction of Carthage. Okay. uh Rome and Carthage fought for dominance over the Mediterranean and they will fight they they fought three wars in the last war the last the third Punic war Rome extinguishes it annaliates Carthage from the planet okay and so um at this time Carthage is a great civilization and um the Romans now have explained why this happened and now Virgil explains it's because love uh took hold of Ditto, destroyed her mind and it made her so angry that not only did it did they condemn her to death but they condemn her entire people to death. It is because of this madness that is why the Carthaginians attacked Rome and Rome had to defend itself and Rome recognized that only by defeating and destroying all of Carthage can Rome ever be saved.
Okay, so this is the madness of love. Not only it will condemn you to death, but it will condemn your entire civilization to death. Okay, so Ditto kills herself. And now what's going to happen is that basically Inas has forgotten her, right? Because Inas has this mission from the gods and he he and
141:14he he understands that in order to fulfill his mission, he needs a prophecy. He needs to talk to his father who is dead. He needs to go into the underworld to receive this prophecy. when he goes to the underworld, who does he meet? Ditto.
Okay. Right. So, so, so this is going to be their last encounter together. And let's see what happens to Ditto. Right.
And wandering there among them, wounds still fresh, Venetian ditto drifted along the endless woods. As the Trojan hero paused beside her, recognized her through the shadows, a dim misty figure as one, when the month as young may see or seem to see the new moon rising up through banks of clouds. That moment, Anas wept and approached the ghost with tender words of love. Tragic, ditto. So, was the story true that came my way?
I heard that you were dead. You took the final measure with a sword. Oh, dear God. Was it I who caused your death?
What an this guy is, right? He's like, "Was it me? Did you care for me? I I didn't know." Okay. It doesn't get worse than this.
Okay.
All right. Keep on going. I swear by the stars, by the powers on high, whatever faith one swears by here in the depths of earth. I left your shores, my queen, against my will. Yes, the will of the gods that drives me through the shadows.
Now these mouldering places so for Lauren, this steep, unfathomemed night, their decrees have forced me on. Nor did I ever dream my leaving could have brought you so much grief. Stay a moment. Don't withdraw from my sight. Running away from whom?
This is the last word that fate allows me to say to you, the last. Anias, with such appeals, with welling tears, tried to soothe her rage, her
143:14wild fiery glance. But she, her eyes fixed on the ground, turned away, her features no more moved by his pleas as he talked on. Then if she were set in stony flint or Peran marble rock. And at last she tears herself away. His enemy forever fleeing back to the shadowed forest where Sikias her husband long ago answers all her anguish.
Meets her love with love. But Anias no less struck by her unjust fate escorts her from afar with streaming tears and pies her as she passes.
Okay. So uh in is trying to have a conversation with her but she does not speak. Okay. Why this is important is that at this time in history the difference between a free individual okay a citizen and a slave is that a citizen has the right to speak. Okay a citizen is literally someone who has the right to speak before other people.
So losing speech, losing the capacity to speak. It is worse than death. It is slavery. Okay. So, love has not only killed Ditto and killed her civilization, but it's made her a slave.
Okay. All right. So, let's think about this. Okay. This is the Iniad.
Uh, this is Virgil writing about Ditto. Did Virgil know Ditto in real life?
Oh, I mean like I I mean I Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, I I put this I phrased it incorrectly. Okay.
Um, who is Ditto? Who who is she? We know who Beatus is, right? But who is Ditto? Yeah, I understand that.
Right. But like when you write, you have to use a model, right? So So who who do you think Ditto is really? Excuse me.
145:15Um, Rojo's muse. I would say it's the opposite. Why? Why? If you have a muse, what are you doing?
You're praising her, right? But here, uh, Virgil is showing how mad Ditto is. So, who So, who do you think this person is? H
his ex,
right? His it could it could be an ex-wife.
But but what but I mean like clearly Virgil hates this person, right? Otherwise, you can't write like this. So what did she do to make Virgil angry at her? Yes.
Maybe she is an example to him. like he's trying to use her as an example to maybe not betray a bunch of people for your love.
Okay, so we've already established in order for Dante to write about Beatric, Beatric had to be a real person. Okay, there had to be real emotions between these two people. So Ditto is a real person and it could be an ex-wife, but something had to happen in order for Virgil to hate her this much. And what was it? probably
Virtual was probably embarking on his own personal journey, but felt that she was impeding him by being overly emotional.
Um, no. I don't think I don't think that's what it is. Yes.
Oh, I know it. She was unfaithful to him.
Yeah. She betrayed him, right? You understand? This sort of hatred can only be generated through treachery, right? or possibly even denial, right?
Where she he Virgil wanted her to be his muse. He wanted to write poetry uh about her and she's like, "Virgil, you're kind of ugly, man. Get away from me, please. You're stalking me now. I want to call the police.
Don't bother me anymore.
147:15Okay." And so this love for her becomes hatred, right? But this creates an interesting paradox because it was a similar similar situation with Dante where Dante loved Beatatrice but they couldn't be together and then ultimately Beatric died and Dante was not like you deserved it Okay, sorry. Sorry if am I [laughter] like I forget we have kids in the room but um he didn't do that right. He was like, "No, I still love you, Beatatrice." Whereas Virgil is like, "Yeah, you deserved it, man. What's the difference?" Yes.
Um, I just want to ask a question because I feel like Virgil doesn't really hate Diddle because like if you if you look at the line, um, Sakaya's her husband long ago answers all her anguish, meets her love with love. So like basically she's well she is in the underworld but she it looks like she gets to live happily ever after and also like I feel like there is clear irony towards Ania's like treachery. So I think and also like Daido's love for Anias is not like natural love. is actually like forced onto her by the gods by Venus and Hera. So I feel like she is more like the victim in the Aniad.
Yeah. Well, yeah. Um, so everyone agrees that Ditto is the victim here. Okay. But if it is true that she has she's happy where she is, what she what should she do in when she sees Inas, forgive him.
Okay. But what should she
149:17do first? H
you should talk to him, respond to him.
Okay. How Yes.
Oh, you think I was still brokenhearted over you? But no, I'm fine.
Yeah. I mean, like like she has to do something, right? Either slap him or punch him or curse him or just say, "Haha, I don't care about you anymore." Okay. But she needs to show him because of her need for vengeance that I moved on from you. The fact that she fails to speak, the fact that she she fails to respond probably suggests like she's basically lost her hope.
You understand? Abandon all hope, ye who enter here. She's lost who she is. And and and that's what Virgil is saying. Love is toxic.
Okay? And so I would also point out like Virgil has given her the worst possible punishment because she's lost her pride. She's lost her sense of self. She's become a slave now, right? So, I think the underlying emotion is Virgil hates um Ditto.
Um probably because Ditto thinks he's ugly. Um but again, I mean, you know, it's a paradox because again, Dante never consummated it with Beatatrice, but he still writes poetry to her and he elevates her to heaven. And it's the opposite with Virgil who never contemplated with Ditto but in response he casts her to hell. Right. How can we explain what's going on?
Yes.
Maybe Dante sees uh Beatric's separation from him as involuntary while while uh Virgil thinks that Ditto just kind of uh refused him voluntarily. Okay. Yes.
151:23The pursuit that Virgil might have wanted to pursue Ditto or whoever that person is in real life and just failed to do so. And so there's this hate, which is true, but there's also some nuance love in there cuz he couldn't get her.
No, but but I I understand. I'm saying that Dante had a similar situation, right? for Dante's it was again it was separated but he couldn't do much about it
I guess
okay um so we know the story of Dante and Beatatrice we don't know the story of Virgil and whoever this ditto is okay so we're making certain assumptions right so I'm just saying based on what we've learned so far how how can we most simply explain the the economy right let me ask you this question yes One's love, one's not.
Exactly. But but but can explain
uh with love is not true. I guess in Dante's terms, love the the the the love of God uh is not possessive. It is not um territorial. It's not vengeful. So, and uh whatever Virgil had was not love.
Okay. So, if you if like Donnie truly loved Beatatric and Beatric says to you, Donnie, you're ugly and I met this really hot guy. What should Donny's response be? Oh,
like I'm happy for you. Exactly. Right. Do you understand? That's that's your only proper response.
I'm happy for you because all I care about is your happiness. Right. So for Virgil to say to say, uh, you know what? You betrayed me. What what what does that tell us about about Virgil?
He doesn't love this person. Okay. What does he really want? control this person. You understand that's the difference between love and power.
Love is about you giving. Power is about you taking, right? So the fact that this person did either uh refused
153:25him or betrayed him made him so angry that he turned her into ditto in the uh Iniad. Okay. But if you read it, uh, you can't help but feel tremendous pity for Ditto and, um, um, okay, does it make sense? Yes.
You, so you're saying you can't help but feel pity for Ditto and Daido. And so that's I agree with that. I wonder Daido is clearly symbolic of Carthage. Anias is clearly symbolic of Rome. Virgil had to take these back to Augustus and be like, "What do you think about my next chapter of the need?" And he's, it seems like Augustus is like, "Yeah, great.
Daido's in hell and we want Carthage in hell." But just looking at the literary justice of this, it's easy for a reader to be like, "Anias is the bad guy here. He's the liar. He's a manipulator. He's a jerk. Daido gets unjust punishment going to hell." So as the reader, we're siding with the symbolic Carthage.
So is and and so I understand that the Greeks were famous for like the five act play. Aristotle wrote poetics.
Romans were famous for turning away from that.
And so they might be like, "Haha, we're the winners here. We're so cool. We're such great writers."
Where Greeks would be like, "You're you're doing it. You're doing poor right."
Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. If you were any reader or and you know the story, you can only feel sympathy for Ditto, right? And that's why in the Roman tradition, you were not allowed to question this. Okay?
You had to believe not only Inas is the hero, you had to model yourself off him. And the only way to resolve this paradox,
155:26this contradiction is by simply obeying. Don't question. Don't think for yourself, obey. If you think that it is Ditto who is the hero of the story, and quite honestly, a lot of people do think Ditto is the hero of the story, then it is because Satan has taken you. Okay.
It's because you're being possessed by Satan, right? Yes. So you are saying in uh in a polytheist in an age before Christianity in an age before this dual dualistic thinking either you're evil or you're good uh the Romans were already damning people to Satan.
Okay. So the Roman culture believes that the organizing principle of society is piety. Okay. Obedience. And the very point of the INIAD is to model yourself in right.
So yes, intuitively you have problems with how Inas behaved, but that just shows you that your intuition is wrong. So stop thinking yourself and just obey your teacher, obey your parent, obey the emperor. Okay? So that's a central message and this becomes basically the central organizing principle for the Catholic Church. Uh because Paul and Augustine will take this idea and they will uh systemize it and make it theological.
Okay. Does that make sense?
This is something that makes me curious. So you said and this passage here with this paragraph here, it's very clear why someone might feel uh sympathy for Ditto. And something I'm wondering about is that Virgil is not a bad writer. He knows exactly what he's writing. So if he's trying to make Ditto the bad guy here, why did he make her easy to sympathize with?
Why did he not make her so evil?
Yeah, that's a great question. Okay. All right. So let me explain what's going
157:26on. So the thing about poets is they are prophets, meaning that whatever comes from them comes from the divine. Okay? That's why poetry is beauty and truth embodied because it's coming it because the poet is just channeling the divine. But there are certain cases where uh the divine is under the arrest.
For example, you're called before the emperor of the Roman Empire and you're told, "Virgil, you're the greatest poet in the world. I'm gonna give you a trillion dollars if you write the poem in the way I I want. And then V's like, "Sure." And then while he's chanting the vine, is like, "The vine is great. This is great poetry, but it's not what I want, man. And I'll give you $2 or I'll cut off your head.
Your choice, man." Okay. And that is why the the INIAD is structured the way it is. It's it's a complete mess if you actually read it. There are a lot of contradictions. Ingus is in the INIAD because clearly the poet is not working uh like just out of his own free will.
He's working under a lot of um under a lot of duress. In fact, let let me finish. In fact, um, Virgil, his last request before he died was, "Please burn this manuscript." Because he knows for a fact he's going to burn in hell for this. Okay. He knows.
He said to Ro Augustus, "Uh, [laughter] please burn this." Okay. Um, yeah. I I want that $2, but now that I'm going to die, I I I know I'm going to go to hell. I I rather you burn this. Okay.
Uh yes.
Why Why would Caesar want you to pity
159:28Ditto?
Um Caesar the emperor wants to create a new theology for Rome, right? So he needs a Bible. In the Bible, certain themes have to be explicit, okay? To so that he can force these ideas onto people because it's poetry. Because um the poet is summoning the the divine, a lot of this divine divine divinity cannot be fully processed.
Does that make sense? So there are going to be passages that leak out that create inconsistencies. Okay, that and and so like in modern eyes we see Ditto is sympathetic. We see that Inias is a jerk. But if you are a emperor, you have certain expectations and so you're going to see uh this work in a certain way that conforms to your expectations.
And if you if you read the entirety of the Iniad, most of it, 90% of it, 99% of it is conforming to his expectations. Okay? He's not smart enough to actually know about the leakages because he lacks sympathy. He lacks empathy. Okay?
The thing about politicians, powerful people, is like they really lack empathy, which means that they lack the capacity to read with nuance and with subtlety. Okay? Does that make sense? All right. Okay.
Um, so, um, so do do you guys understand what's going on? Okay. All right. So, it is not Virgil's intention. It is not, uh, Augusta's intention that we sympathize with Ditto, but because it's poetry, it has a life of its own.
And so, there are certain parts uh, that are beyond control. Okay. All right. So, let's continue. Divine Comedy.
Okay.
161:29Countto five, line 67. C. Paris, Tristan. And he pointed out a name to me more than a thousand shades departed from our life because of love. No sooner had I heard my teacher name the ancient ladies and the knights, then pity seized me, and I was like a man astray.
My first words, poet, I should willingly speak with those two who go together there and seem so lightly carried by the wind. and he to me. You'll see when they draw closer to us, and then you may appeal to them. By that love which impels them, they will come. No sooner had the wind bent them toward us than I urged on my voice.
Oh, battered souls, if one does not forbid it, speak with us. Even as doves, when summoned by desire, born forward by their will, moved through the air with wings uplifted still to their sweet nest, those spirits left the ranks where ditto suffers, approaching us through the malignant air so powerful had been my loving cry.
Okay. Stop. Okay. All right. So, um, at this stage, Dante is a student of Virgil, and Dante worships Virgil.
But if we if we read the text carefully and critically, we know that not all is what it seems. Okay? And here in these few lines, Dante commits an act of rebellion against Virgil. He commits an act of defiance against Ditto. H sorry, against Virgil.
What is it? naming Ditto.
Yeah, he names Ditto. Okay, do you understand? Because remember what happened was that Virgil would go on about a thousand different people and he would name all of them, but he would not name Ditto because he hates Ditto and and honestly he's ashamed of what he did to Ditto, right? And so Dante, what he's
163:29doing is away from the speech of Virgil, he names Ditto somewhere else to restore Ditto. Does that make sense? You see that nuance here, right? So, it's an act of rebellion. It's an act of defiance that foreshadows uh paradise.
Okay. What is to come. All right. Uh keep on going. Line 82.
Even as doves, when summoned by desire, born forward by their will, moved through the air with wings uplifted still to their sweet nest, though spirits left the ranks where ditto suffers, approaching us through the malignant air so powerful had been my loving cry. Verse 88. Oh living being, gracious and benign, who through the darkened air have come to visit our souls that stained the world with blood. If he who rules the universe were friend to us, then we should pray to him to give you peace. for you have pied our atrocious state.
Whatever pleases you to hear and speak will please us too, to hear and speak with you now while the wind is silent in this place. The land where I was born lies on that shore to which the poe together with the waters that follow it descends to final rest. Love that can quickly seize the gentle part took hold of him because of the fair body taken from me. How that was done still wounds me. Love that releases no beloved from loving took hold of me so strongly through his beauty that as you see it has not left me yet.
Love led the two of us unto one death. Cena waits for him who took my our love. These words were born across from them to us. When I had listened to those injured souls, I bent my head and held it low until the poet asked of me, "What are you thinking?" Okay. So, um, Virgil says to Dante, "If you really understand hell, you should talk to these different souls." Okay.
So, Dante talks to these two souls. These are two people from his own life in Italy. And they said that, "Well, you know, we fell in love and
165:33um we went we eloped together, but my husband found out and he killed us both." Okay. And um so Virgil asks, "What do you think of this?" Okay, and let's let's listen to Dante's response.
Line 112. When I replied, my words began. Alas, how many gentle thoughts, how deep a longing had led them to the agonizing pass. Then I dressed my speech again to them, and I began. Francesca, your afflictions moved me to tears of sorrow and of pity.
But tell me, in the time of gentle size, with what and in what way did love allow you to recognize you're still in certain longings? And she, to me, there's no greater sorrow than thinking back upon a happy time in misery. And this your teacher knows. Yet if you long so much to understand the first fruit of our love, then I shall tell my tale to you as one who weeps and speaks. One day to pass the time away, we read of Lancelot, how love had overcome him.
We were alone and we suspected nothing. And time and time again that reading led our eyes to meet and made our faces pale. And yet one point alone defeated us. When we had read how the desired smile was kissed by one who was so true a lover, this one who never shall be parted from me, while all his body trembled, kissed my mouth. A gal halt indeed.
That book and he who wrote it too. That day we read no more. And while one spirit said these words to me, the other wept so that because of pity I fainted as if I had met my death and then I fell as a dead body falls.
Okay. All right. So the story is that Franciscaca and her lover. Um at at this time in history there's something called courtly love which is like you know just romantic uh po you write romantic poetry you declare your love to to someone else but you don't consummate it. Okay.
Um
167:35this is very common uh at this time the love tradition where you profess your love but it's not consummated. It's not sexual at all. And so Franciscoca and her lover, they're reading this poetry, uh, this ro this romance, and [snorts] then they have the urge to kiss each other, which pisses off the the, um, the husband and and they both get killed. What is the difference between love and lust? What is the difference between love and lust?
Yes. Um speaking from definition, one is emotion, a thing of a soul and the other thing is a thing that is physical. But I think in this context it actually means uh love is when you wish the best for someone selfishly and lust is when you wish to process them.
Okay. All right. Anyone else? So lust also comes from a place of power, right? Of control, right?
Anyone else? Yes.
Uh so uh love is like a strong emotion where lust is like impulse I think like a impulse to to have sex or to to you know like to follow your feelings.
Yes. Okay. So it's impulsive. It's just something you do on the spirit of the moment. You do it without reflection.
Okay. Um, but why is that a sin? Why would that be a bad thing?
Yes.
Because you want to control others.
Not necessarily. Right. Yes.
Uh, because last original thing, original saying means that it just not a
169:37real thing, just original. It means it can cause the thing. So maybe lust is something which can cause this thing can cause the people to make mistake like you you you lust someone means you want to have sex with someone or maybe but that is desire this desire can let people to do something badly so like like a rape or whatever. Yes.
Because when you lust for someone that is an objectification of that person you objectify them. They are no longer an individual.
Okay. All right. Could you explain some more?
For for example, um like let's say let's example of prostitution, right? You um if you have lust for let's say a sex worker, then you are not treating them in a way that sees them as human but as more like an object. So it objects it takes away their sort of the dignity that they they have as a human.
Okay. Okay. So let's carry let's car this further. Okay. We're trying to figure out what the difference is between love and lust.
And again it's not that clear. You know D is completely confused by this. That's why Donn is f is faint because he's like what's going on here? I don't really understand why lust would necessarily be a sin. Right?
Isn't it possible for you to love someone and then you love someone? Right? You first if you see someone beautiful. Yeah. You're like, you know, I want her number.
I I want to go talk to her. That's lust. But then you talk to her. You guys have coffee and you're like, wow, she's my soulmate. Now you're in love.
So isn't is doesn't lust lead to love. What can someone explain to me what's going on? Yes.
Um maybe another part is the lust focuses on the the outward image while love is more about like emotional connection and getting to know them better. Yes.
Uh I think lust is based on the flesh.
171:39It's based on the body, but uh love is just based on devotion, based on the hope or you know inspiration or something.
But but but I'm confused, right? Because it's just like h like how do you find love in the first place? Right? I mean like yes. So, if God is love, wouldn't love be like you're bringing God into the relationship and then bringing back to the to the fall.
Adam and Eve uh ate the apple and they saw they were naked and were shamed. And so, you're hiding from God. You're in shame. You're bringing the ego into lust.
Yeah. Okay. So, so that that's a really So, so I'm hearing two really interesting ideas. Okay. First is that lust causes you to objectify, which is to simplify and possess someone.
Also, love is uh is about giving, right? It's about letting go of your ego, whereas lust is about fulfilling your ego. Okay? But I'm still confused as to why lust would necessarily be a sin. Why would it be bad?
Right? Because Because like let's because like let's expand this, okay? Heaven is where love is. Love means no fear, right? So if it is a sin, it is what it's doing is it's causing love to be degraded.
It's causing fear to come into place. Right? So that's what a sin is. So why would lust do this? And again, of all the sins, lust, we're we're going to descend down to hell.
So lust is like the least light of all the sins, but it's still a sin. So I'm confused as to why Franciscaca, you know, she falls in love and she they
173:42kiss and then she's killed. Why why is necessarily her fault? Why what's what's a sin here? Yes. Um, so, uh, before you mentioned that free will is God's most precious gift to us.
And when you're lusting over someone, you are violating your free will. Even if it's in your mind, like with modern celebrities, some people say very rude things about them in comments. And even while that is legal, it is still a sin because they are already violating these celebrities in their minds. But I mean, I'm trying to figure out why loving someone and lusting someone, why loving someone would not violate the free will, but lusting someone would violate the free will. Yeah.
Yes.
Because like lusting someone is more driven by your like physical drive. And here like Franciscoca, she went over her ability to reason. She basically betrayed her husband and that is sin sinful because it's misordered. And love is more like driven by your spiritual connection. So it goes beyond lust.
It's more of your free will because you personally resonate with this specific person. But like lust technically anyone who's physically attractive can be.
So is sex a sin?
A target?
Is sex a sin?
No, but misorder sexes.
Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Um Yeah.
Um any any more thoughts be before we continue? Okay. So what I'm hearing is um love is spiritual connection. Uh lust is physical connection. Uh lust is the objectification of someone.
Um love is the appreciation of someone and that person's complexity uh and contradictions. And um um lust is about possession about
175:42controlling someone whereas love is about giving yourself. Okay. So so there are lots of differences. Okay. All right.
Let's let let's let's continue six. Upon my mind's reviving, it had closed on hearing the lament of those two kindred. Then sorrow had confounded me completely. I see new sufferings, new sufferers surrounding me on every side. Wherever I move or turn about or set my eyes, I'm in the third circle filled with cold, unending, heavy, and a cursed rain.
Its measure and its kind are never changed. Gross hailstones, water gray with filth, and snow come streaking down across the shadowed air. The earth as it receives that shower stinks. Over the souls of those submerged beneath that mess is an outlandish vicious beast. His three throats barking doglike serverous.
His eyes are blood red, greasy black. His beard, his belly bulges, and his hands are claws. His talons tear and fle and ren the shades. That downpour makes the sinners howl like door dogs. They use one of their sides to screen the other.
Those miserable wretches turn and turn. When Cerberus the great worm noticed us, he opened wide his mouth, showed us his fangs. There was no part of him that did not twitch. My guide opened his hands to their full span, plucked up some earth, and with his fists filled full, he hurled it straight into those famished jaws. Just as a dog that barks with greedy hunger would will then fall quiet when he gnaws his food intent and straining hard to cram it in.
So were the filthy faces that the demon Cberus transformed after he'd stunned the spirits. So they wished that they were deaf.
Okay, so there's Cberus um who's threatening them and then Virgil basically feeds them. Okay, so again,
177:42this gives us the idea that Virgil really is the emperor of hell. He's able to control the demons here. Okay, keep on going. Line 34. We walked across the shades on whom there thuds that heavy rain and set our souls upon their empty images that seem like persons.
And all those spirits lay upon the ground except for one who sat erect as soon as he caught sight of us in front of him. Oh you who are conducted through this hell, he said to me, recall me if you can, for you before I was unmade were made. and I to him. It is perhaps your anguish that snatches you out of my memory so that it seems that I have never seen you. But tell me who you are, you who are set in such a dismal place, such punishment.
If other pains are more and none more disgusting, and he to me, your city, one soul of so full of envy that its sack has always built, that city held me in the sunlet life. The name your citizens gave me was Choco. And for the damning sin of gluttony, as you can see, I languish in the rain. And I, a wretched soul, am not alone. For all of these have the same penalty for this same sin.
And he said no more. I answered him, "Jo, your suffering so awaits on me that I'm forced to weep. But tell me if you know what end awaits the citizens of that divided city. Is any just man there? Tell me the reason why it has been assailed by so much schism.
And he to me after long controversy they'll come to blood. The party of the woods will chase the other out with much offense. But then within three sons they too must fail at which the other party will prevail using the power of one who taxs his sails. This party will hold it high his its head for long and heap great hates great weight upon its enemies. However much they weep indignantly, two men are just, but no one listens to them.
Three sparks that send on fire every heart are envy,
179:44pride, and aiciousness. With this his words, inciting tears were done. And I to him, I would learn more from you. I ask you for a gift of further speech. To go, for Renata, men so worthy, Arrigo, Mosca, Yakapo, Rustikuchi, and all the rest whose minds bent toward the good.
Do tell me where they are and let me meet them. For my great longing drives me on to learn if heaven sweetens or hell poisons them. And he they are among the blackest souls. A different scene, a different sin has dragged them to the bottom. If you descend so low, there you can see them.
But when you have returned to the sweet world, I pray recall me to men's memory. I say no more to you. Answer no more. Then his straight gaze grew twisted and ary. He looked at me a while and bent his heads.
He fell as low as all his blind companions. And my guide said to me, "He'll rise no more until the blast of the angelic trumpet upon the coming of the hostile judge. Each one shall see his sorry tomb again and once again take on his flesh and form and hear what shall resound eternally." So did we pass across that squalid mixture of shadows and of rain? Our steps slowed down, talking a while about the life to come, at which I said, "And after the great sentence, oh master, will these torments grow or else be less, or will they just be as intense?" And he to me, remember now your science which says that when a thing has more perfection, so much the greater is its pain or pleasure. Though these oursed sinners never shall attain the true perfection, yet they can expect to be more perfect than than now.
We took the circling way trace by the road. We said much more than I can hear recount. We reached the point that marks the downward slope. Here we found Plutus, the great enemy.
Okay, so certain points about this passage. First of all, um uh who Dante
181:47is meeting are people he's he knew from his life in Florence. Okay. So, a lot of his spoken enemies will be here condemned in in hell. Um, the other thing is um I want to talk about the nature of these punishments in hell. What are these punishments trying to do?
Why are they constructed the way it is? Because uh we were in a circle of lust and so these people are being whooped around by the wind. Okay. Now we are in the third circle which is people are being punished for gluttony. Right.
And what is the punishment? All the rain. They're being rained on. Okay. Explain me why rain would be a fitting punishment for gluttony.
Uh yes.
So there's a lot of factor here. First of all, there's this saying the fires of lust. So symbolically the rain is meant to put out the fires of lust. and not so symbolically like imagine you are thirsty because hell is hot and you're standing in the middle of the rain and there is no water beneath you. There's no jug of water and you just have to open your mouth and let the raindrops fall into your mouth little by little, little by little and no matter how much you want it, no matter how much you uh wave the rain towards you with your hands, no more rain will come than what rain will come.
So you can't satisfy your lust. Um, okay. Well, it's raining for all eternity, right? Right. Let's visualize this.
Okay. What is gluttony?
What is
Yes.
Gluttony is um the narrow sense is eating too much food or eating excessive amounts of food or lavish food. But on a wider definition, it's uh desiring too much and like indulging in excessive pleasures.
Yes. Okay. Yeah.
Not being able to stop.
183:47Yeah. Not stopping. Always desiring. Just not able to restrain yourself. Okay.
That's what gluttony is. Um why why would Yes.
How is gluttony different from greed? That's a great question. Okay. Anyone? What are you doing with greed?
We we will actually enter the circle of greed, right? Yes.
Greed greed might be personal gain at the expense of others. But like gluttony is just not being able to control yourself.
That's right. That's right. Okay. So greed you are stealing from others essentially. Does that make sense?
Right. Whereas gluttony is you're just uh Yes.
Could you say that greed is wanting a lot of things and gluttony is wanting a lot of the same thing?
Um well I mean like if you want money right you're still greedy right is it's right. So like but like like the main issue is greed is you're actually taking from others. Does that make sense? Yes. I don't know so much about that.
Like to me it feels like uh greed is when you take things and gluttony is when you take things and then you consume them. So for for example if you see a a person who is overeating like obviously overeating and wasting wasting food and and maybe vomiting it out. You wouldn't say wow you're so greedy. You would say you are glutton and
yeah but but that's what we're saying. Gluttony is like you just want too much whereas greeding you're taking from from others.
No, like like gluttony is when you take things and you consume them. You reduce them to nothing. And greed is when you take things
and what and and and you're taking taking these things from where?
Like there's an extra step after
185:49gluttony. That's what I'm trying to put point out.
Okay. All right. All right. So So let's let's continue. Okay.
So gluttony is you want too much and you can never stop from wanting too much. So why would raining on you be the punishment? What's the logic of this?
Make you awake and dull you of your desire. Do you of your desire? Huh? Yes.
Be given to you as a punishment like endless rain.
Yes. Can you explain this?
So it's kind of like a tooth for a tooth. So if you you are gluttonous, you want more and more and more and never satisfied you. So raining more and more and more on you is like the right punishment for you.
But but but why would it be the right punishment for you? Because I I understand that as a punishment, right? But why would that be the right punishment? because it never satisfy you. It's just raining on you.
You don't consume it or do anything with it.
Do you think are being enjoy being rained on?
No.
Right. So So what's going on here?
I think which is why I I mentioned not being able to stop. It's to me a gluttonous person is a person that keep that like you know we all know that you just keep keep eat. You're just not able to stop consuming.
All right guys again again you have to use your imagination. Okay. So the the sin is gluttony. Okay, the sin is gluttony. And I want to and people who are gluttonous tend to be fat, right?
Gluttony. Okay, fat. All right, so let's just think of different punishments. Okay, we don't have to think about the logic or justice of it, but let's think of like how if we were designing hell and you, you know, this person is fat or gluttonous, what could we do to this person?
187:52Nothing to eat.
Okay. Okay. Nothing to eat. Sure. Okay.
Nothingness. Right. You are just in a prison by yourself. Like solitary confinement. There's nothing to do.
Okay. That's one possible punishment. Okay. What else?
Feed them to death.
Excuse me.
Feed them to death.
Okay. Yeah. Like just too much food. Okay. So, like you just balloon out, right?
Just like cake after cake. It's like it's like Have Have you guys ever seen the Homer sorry the um Simpsons episode when Homer's in hell? And then like and then the devil's like, "Ha, you like donuts, right?" And so what they do is they create this machine which feeds donuts to Homer for all eternity. It's like, "Oh." And that was like eventually he's going to mom it. But Homer's like in ecstasy.
Okay. He's like, "Oh, yes. Yes. Uh, yes."
Um, me.
Uh, you then you
Okay. Maybe like let them to do some exercise.
Good. Yeah. Treadmill, man. This is awesome. You're fat.
I'll make you exercise for the rest of your life until you're thin, right? Uh, yes.
Maybe just put food. it out of your range. You can see it, but you cannot
Yeah, that's a really good punishment, right? Like like you're on a treadmill and there's a cake in front of you and you're running around as fast as you can, but you can never actually touch the cake. Okay, so yeah. So maybe um cake out of reach. Yeah, these are great punishments.
What else? Yes.
Um I just have to point something out like
Can you not do this, please?
I have to do this because I find this really upsetting. People are fat for a lot of reasons other than gluttony. And I think that reducing fat equals gluttony. I think it's really reductive and it's really offensive.
This is just this is an exercise. Okay.
189:53I think it's really offensive.
Okay. All right. You're gluttony. Okay. So like, oh, you're not fat, but but you're gluttonous.
Okay. All right. Okay. Um Okay. I hate to say this, but every day I teach for four hours, and it's a really hard to teach for four hours.
Okay. I always have to concentrate thinking. So if you are interrupting me or if you're trying to divert my attention, it causes my brain to be even more fatigued. Okay. It is exhausting.
Okay. Well, I'm telling you what you what's happening because this is this is my my sixth day.
Answer all the questions of that lady.
Okay. Okay. All right.
You can you can ask me questions. Okay. I'll answer everyone. I promise.
Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Let's let's keep on going.
Okay. The cake is out of reach. You are uh running uh very very far. Okay. So, these are all great punishments.
Okay. And what they're doing is punishing. You understand? It's punishing you for your gluttony. And that's what we think hell is.
Hell is about punishment. Yeah. Go ahead.
Um, can I I mean I'm I'm just linking this to lust and the punishment for lust.
Yes. Which is like being bored around
being world around. It's almost like the consequence of what you cause to others in the world.
Yes. Exactly. Okay. So we think that hell is a place of punishment. But for Dante, hell is also a place of justice, but redemptive justice to force you into reflection, to force you to recognize the hurt you've caused others.
Does that make sense? Okay. So, um the so you are you have gluttony and it's
191:55raining on you and it never stops. Okay. So what what it's telling you is that is just an expression of your gluttony. Okay, a rain that can't stop. Okay, does that make sense?
Okay, that's why hell is designed the way it is. It's not designed to punish because if you want to punish, there are like a million ways we could punish anyone, right? We just have to use our imagination. These are great punishments and we would laugh at this. But the point of hell is not to punish.
The point of hell is to force reflection, to force people to recognize what the problem is and um what they can do about it. Okay. Does that make sense? Okay. Any questions?
All right. Uh yes.
Yeah. I mean I uh Yes. hell that that the the um tornado in for lust and this one for Buttonly but also in heaven too. Peicardia is also stuck in a in a loop. I just noticed the pattern even between inferno and and and there is symmetry here.
I'm just saying.
Yes. Exactly. Okay. Yes. You're exactly right.
Yes.
How does being in a tornado um help you reflect?
No. No. It's it's trying to manifest visualize for you the problem with lust. And the idea is that you are inconstant. Okay.
You're always changing your mind. Okay. That's a problem with lust. Like if you see something beautiful, you want it. But then you see something more beautiful, you want that.
Okay. Uh yes.
Um we have a very interesting comment from the live stream. Okay. And uh one person mentioned that uh she thinks that uh the punishment is quite similar. We can take the um Japanese animation film Spirited Away. Okay.
As an example, because she thinks the pigs in the film is quite similar to
193:57this punishment and um she greed is like something saying like I want more and gluttony is like I can't stop. It's just like the pigs in the film.
Good. Yeah. Exactly. Right. So greed is like I want I want more.
I want I want from others. Glenn, I can't stop. Okay, good. Okay. All right.
But does that make sense to you? Okay. Hell is constructed not as a place to make you afraid to punish you. It's hell is a place constructed to force you into seeing for yourself the problems and dangers of your sin. Okay.
Does that make sense? Okay. All right. Uh yes. consequence and the principle behind your sin to make you realize the sin's essence and what it does to you or your body or the others around you.
Yes. Okay. Right. So again, it it's to put a mirror to your face. Okay.
All right. Let's keep on reading. Kanto 7 P Satan pap Satan alle so Plutus with his grading voice began the gentle sage aware of everything said reassuringly don't let your fear defeat you for whatever power he has he cannot stop our climbing down this crag then he turned back to Plutus's swollen face and said to him be quiet cursed wolf let your vindictiveness feed on yourself he's no his is no random journey to the deep it has been willed on high where Michael took revenge upon the arrogant rebellion. As sails inflated by the wind collapsed and tangled in a heap when the mass cracks so that ferocious beast fell to the ground. Thus we made our way down to the fourth ditch to take in more of that despondent shore where all the universe's ill is stored.
Justice of God
195:57who has amassed as many strange tortures and travails as I have seen. Why do we let our guilt consume us so? Even as waves that break above Kuribdis, each shattering the other when they meet, so must the spirits here dance their round dance here more than else where I saw multitudes to every side of me. Their howls were loud while wheeling weights. They used their chests to push.
They struck against each other at that point. Each turned around and wheeling back those weights, cried out, "Why do you hoard? Why do you squander? So did they move around the sorry circle from left and right to the opposing point. Again, again they cried their chant of scorn.
And so when each of them had changed positions, he circled halfway back to his next joust. And I who felt my heart almost pierced through requested, "Master, show me now what shades are these, and tell me if they all were clerics, those conjured ones who circle on our left. And he to me, "All these two, left and right, were so squint eyed of mind in the first life, no spending that they did was done with measure." Their voices spark this out with clarity when they have reached the two points of the circle where their opposing guilts divide their ranks. These to the left, their heads bereft of hair were clergymen and popes and cardinals with him whom avarest works its excess. And I to him, master among this kind, I certainly might hope to recognize some who have been bespattered by these crimes.
And he to me, that thought of yours is empty, that the undescerning life that made them filthy now renders them unrecognizable. For all eternity they'll come to blows. These here will rise up from their seulers with fists clenched tight, and these with haircropped close, ill-giving and illing, have robbed both of the fair world, and set them to this frockus. What that is like my words need not embellish. Now you can see, my son, how
197:57brief the sport of all those goods that are in fortune's care, for which the tribe of men contend and brawl, for all the gold that is wherever was beneath the moon could never offer rest to even one of these exhausted spirits. Master, I asked of him, now tell me too, this fortune whom you've touched upon just now, what she who clutches so all the world's goods. And he to me, "Oh unenlightened creatures, how deep the ignorance that hampers you. I want you to digest my word on this. Who made the heavens?
Who gave them guide? Was he whose wisdom transcends everything that every part may shine unto the other? He had the light aortioned equally similarly for worldly splenders. He ordained a general minister and guide to shift. From time to time those empty goods from nation unto nation, clan to clan in ways that human reason can't prevent.
Just so when people rules, one languishes, obeying the decision she has given, which like a serpent in the grass is hidden. Your knowledge cannot stand against her force. For she foresees and judges and maintains her kingdom as the other gods do theirs. The changes that she brings are without resppite. It is necess it is necessity that makes her ship swift.
And for this reason, men change state so often. She's the one so frequently maligned even by those who should give praise to her. They blame her wrongfully with words of scorn. But she's blessed and do not hear these things. For with the other primal beings happy, she turns her sphere and glories in her bliss.
But now let us descend to greater sorrow. For every star that rose when I first moved is setting now we cannot stay too long. We crossed the circle to the other shore. We reached a foaming water course that spills into a trench formed by its overflow. That stream was even darker than deep purple and we together with those shadowed waves moved downward and
199:57along a strange pathway. When it was reached, when it has reached the foot of those malign gray floats, that melancholy stream descends, forming a swamp that bears the name of sticks. And I who was intent on watching it could make out muddied people in that slime, all naked, and their faces furious. These struck each other not with hands alone, but with their heads and chest, and with their feet, and tore each other peacemeal with their teeth. The kindly master told me, "Son, now see the souls of those whom Ganganger has defeated, and I should also have you know for certain that underneath the water there are souls who sigh and make this plane of water bubble.
As your eye, looking anywhere can tell, wedged in the slime, they say we had been sullen in the sweet air that's gladdened by the sun. We bore the mist of sluggishness in us. Now we're bitter in the blackened mud. This hymn they have to gurgle in their gullets because they cannot speak it in full words. And so between the dry shore and the swamp, we circled much of that disgusting pond.
Our eyes upon the swallowers of slime. We came at last upon a tower's base.
Okay, so we are um going down in these circles. We encounter people who are greedy. What is the punishment?
They have to push rocks around. Okay.
In a circle.
In a circle. Uh, what else? Okay. What else? And why would this be a fitting punishment for them?
Again, it's really important for us to appreciate the point of these punishments is not to punish but to force reflection. Okay? To force you to recognize the error of your ways so that you can choose
201:58to make uh a better decision. Okay? This is this is about redemptive justice as opposed to just pure vengeance. What is the logic of this punishment?
Uh, yes.
Art for nothing because you're pushing these rocks around in circles and it's just that you're greedy. You get a lot of these earthly things and at the end you it comes down to nothing. You put so much work.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's very beautiful. Thank you.
Yes.
Maybe try to let people redeem redeem and try to be uh salvation or something.
Yes. Okay. Right. Exactly. Okay.
Yes. Anyone else? Okay. All right. The anger.
What's the punishment for the for the anger?
They have to wrestle each other in mud.
Okay. And And what else? And they're submerged underwater.
Yes. And And what else?
The swallow swallow swine. And they're also like Aren't they also cannibalizing each other? Aren't they also eating each other? So So, so what's the why is this a fitting punishment? of forgiveness or
yeah for forgiveness it means to forgive people.
Yes.
When you are angry you kind of bite off each other like you're mad at each other. You have you want to tore each other apart but you're also like kind of drowning in your own anger that you are swallowing basically because it's killing your body. That's how you a lot of people get cancer and all kinds of disease when you're angry.
Exactly. Okay. So you think you are
203:58hurting others but you're actually hurting yourself. You're consuming others, but you're also consuming yourself in the process. Okay. All right. Yes.
I wonder what is um the river sts doing here.
Excuse me.
Um why why are they drowned in the river st?
Okay. All right. So when you read the divine comedy, each of these different realms, whether they are uh infernal, purgatory or paradise, there's always a complex geography to these realms and there are certain demarcation points which um suggest we are entering a new level. Okay, do you understand? So the sins that we've encountered so far, whether they be lust, um, gluttony, greed, anger, they're bad, but they're not that bad.
Okay, when we cross river stakes, when we enter uh new territory, this is like even worse sins. Okay. Um, so these are things that may make others uncomfortable. They make they make make your life terrible, but they're not actually disrupting the fundamental structure of the universe. Whereas you go lower and lower, these people are in fact um destroying the very fabric of the universe.
Okay, does that make sense? Okay. So, so what Donna is trying to do is trying to separate these different regions of hell as well. Okay. All right.
Okay. Any more questions before we move on? All right. Let's let's let's keep on going. Okay.
KTO 8. I say, continuing that long before we too had reached the foot of that tall
205:59tower, our eyes had risen upward towards its summit, because of two small flames that flickered there, while still another flame returned their signal so far off it was scarcely visible. And I turned toward the sea of all good sense, I said, "What does this mean? And what reply comes from that other fire? Who kindled it?" And he to me, "Above the filthy waters, you can already see what waits for us. If it's not hid by vapors from the marsh, bow string has not thrust from itself an arrow that ever rushed as swiftly through the air as did the little bark that at that moment I saw as it skimmed toward us on the water a solitary boatman at its helm.
I heard him howl. Now you're caught, foul soul. Oh, flegus flegus. Such a shout is useless this time, my master said. where yours no longer than it will take to cross the muddy slle.
And just as one who hears some great deception was done to him and then resents it, so was so was fleg when he had to store his anger. My guide preceded me into the boat once he was in. He had me follow him. There seemed to be no wait until I boarded. No sooner were my guide and I embarked than off that ancient prow went cutting water more deeply than it does when bearing others.
And while we steered across the stagnant channel before me stood a sinner thick with mud, saying, "Who are you? Come before your time." And I to him I've come, but I don't stay. But who are you have become so ugly? He answered, "You can see I'm one who heaps, who weeps, and I to him. In weeping and in grieving a cursed spirit, may you long remain.
Though you're disguised by filth, I know your name." Then he stretched both his hands out toward the boat at which my master quickly shoved him back, saying, "Be off there with the other dogs." That done, he threw his arms around my neck and kissed my face and said, "In indignant
208:01soul, blessed is she who bore you in her womb." When in the world he was presumptuous, there's no good to guilt his memory. And so his shade down here is hot with fury. How many up above now count themselves great kings who wall here like pigs in slime, leaving behind foul memories of their crimes? And I, oh master, I'm very eager to see that spirit sousted within this broth before we've made our way across the lake. And he to me, before the other shore comes into view, you shall be satisfied to gratify so fine a wish is right.
Soon after I heard I had heard these words, I saw the muddy sinner so dismember him that even now I praise and thank God for it. They were all shouting. They all were shouting at Filippo Argenti. At this the Florentine gone wild with spleen began to turn his teeth against himself. We left him there.
I told no more of him, but in my near but in my ear so loud a wailing pounded that I leaned forward all intent to see. The kindly master said, "My son, the city that bears the name of D is drawn near with its grave citizens, its great battalions." I said, "I can already see distinctly, master, the mosques that gleam within the valley as crimson, as if they had just been drawn out of the fire." He told me, "The eternal flame burning there appears to make me make them red, as you can see within this lower hell." So we arrived inside the deep cut trenches that are the moes of this despondent land. The ramparts seem to me to be of iron. But not before we'd ranged in a wide circuit did we approach a place where there that shrill pilot shouted, "Get out! The entrance way is here." Above the gates, I saw more than a thousand who once had reigned from heaven, and they cried in anger, "Who is this who without death can journey
210:01through the kingdom of the dead?" And my wise master made a sign that said he wanted to speak secretly to them. Then they suppressed somewhat their great disdain and said, "You come alone. Let him be gone, for he was reckless entering this realm. Let him return alone on his mad road. Or try to if that he can, since you, his guide, across so dark a land, you are to stay." Consider, reader, my dismay before the sound of those abominable words.
Returning here seemed so impossible. Oh my dear God, who more than seven times has given back to me my confidence and snatched me from deep danger that had menaced. Do not disturb me when I'm so undone. And if they will not let us pass beyond, let us retrace our steps together quickly. These were my words, the Lord who led me there replied, "Forget your fear.
No one can hinder our passage. One so great has granted it. But you wait here for me and feed and comfort your tired spirit with good hope. For I will not abandon you in this low world. And so he goes on his way.
That gentle father has left me there to wait and hesitate. For yes and no contend within my head. I could not hear what he was telling them, but he had not been long with them when each ran back into the city, scrambling fast. And these are adversaries slammed the gates in my lord's face, and he remained outside. Then with slow steps turned back again to me.
His eyes turned to the ground, his brows deprived of every confidence, he said with size. See who has kept me from the house of sorrow. To him he added, to me he added, you though I am vexed must not be daunted. I shall win this contest. Whoever tries within to block our way.
This insolence of theirs is nothing new. They used it once before and at a gateless secret. It is still without its bolt. the place where you made out the fatal text and now already
212:02within that gate and across the circles and alone descends the one who will unlock this realm for us.
Okay, so um for the past few kantos we've established that Virgil is the master of hell. He's able to navigate it pretty easily. These demons obey him. They do whatever he tells them. He understands the geography of hell very intimately.
Now we cross the river sticks and we enter, we are about to enter the city of this. Okay, the this is the home of the fallen angels. Those who rebelled against God and now they are um in hell. This is is where is where they live. Within this we will find Lucifer or Satan.
What's going on here? He's trying to get into the city and the demons say screw off. Uh this guy Dante doesn't belong here. We'll let you in, Virgil, but we won't let in Dante. And Virgil says, "Let us talk in private." So they talk privately and then they're like, "No, he's he's not coming in." Okay.
Why do we have this scene? What is Dante trying to convey or trying to um say about the nature of hell or anything? Any thoughts, any comments about what's going on? Yes. on terms with the devil and they are like good buddies almost like there's a brotherhood there.
Yeah. So, so what the devils are saying is that you've been here before. Uh we know you but we're still at Maggalene and Dante.
Yes.
Um Virgil is the master of outer hell not inner hell.
Okay.
Because he stops at the this right. So he's he's even he doesn't have authority to say who goes in and out of the court.
Okay. What else? Yes.
Um my question I have a question is why
214:03do the angels call Dante a madman or reckless for entering the realm of the dead without dying? Like why do they call him a mad man?
Well well would you want to go into hell?
No.
Yeah. Well it's like what are you doing here man? You're still alive and you choose to walk among us. Are you crazy? Okay.
That that that's what they're saying. Yes.
Love that he has sent Beatatric to heaven. So, he's someone with love, so he shouldn't be where the demons are and he still has reverence for God, I guess, a little bit. Um, so the demons think that he doesn't belong there. Like, what?
Well, they told him he doesn't belong there because it's a body. He's still alive, right? They don't really know about Beatatric. They don't really know about God. They don't care, right?
So, what's what's going on here? Anyone else?
They're saying that Virgil and Dante are different. So, Virgil can go into this place, but Dante can't.
Good. Okay. Yeah. So, so it's clearly there's the difference between Virgil and Dante. Okay.
Ver Donnie is a stranger to this world. Virgil is very familiar to this world. Okay. Virgil belongs here. Okay.
So that's implanting an idea in in in in the uh reader like like Virgil really belongs here. He's very intimate here. He's he's probably very happy here. Yes. And this helps helps us explain why ultimately he chooses not to go to heaven.
Right. When when Don takes D to purgatory, the very top of purgatory, he has opportunity to ascend to heaven. He chooses not to go. He just he just rather to just go back home to limbo. What else?
Yes.
Yeah. I as a question why why Danty just has to go to hell? I mean it's just Virgil who just lead him to to the hell
216:03or D want him he want
he is in hell because there's no other path to heaven, right? He tried these other paths but they're blocked by these beast. So So Virgil is like well we could try to fight these bees but we probably won't win. So let's just go another way. Let's just go into hell and then we'll ascend to heaven through that way.
Okay. So this is the only path to heaven. Okay. Um what is the nature of people in hell? Why what does sin do to people?
And what why and why would that so why is in that? Yeah.
The people in hell like to control So, so what do they do always?
They boss people around.
And so what happens?
They gatekeep.
They gatekeep. And what happens? They fight amongst themselves. Do you understand? Okay.
So this is this is a metaphor for what is happening in Italy right now? Why are there so many these different factions in Italy fighting each other? Why can't they get along? Right? They know each other.
They're probably born in the same family, but they're always fighting with each other. And it's the ego driven by sin, right? By their gluttony, by their lust, by their greed, by their anger. That's the issue in hell. And therefore, there can be no smooth path in hell.
There can be no unity in hell. They just have to fight each other all the time. Okay? So, what's the only way for Virgil and Dante to get out of this? Those demons won't let them in.
That's the nature of hell. People don't get along. They fight all the time. They they geek. They geek.
They are very territorial.
I think Virgil will fight his way in.
Good luck, Virgil. You're fighting an army of demons. Yeah.
Bribe them.
H
bribe.
Um what what do you think the first thing that Virgil tried to do was? Probably bribe them, right? They had a
218:03private conversation. You can imagine all the things that that Virgil tried to tell them, right? like bribing and all that didn't work. So, is there any solution?
Yes.
Uh Dante and Virgil would need to argue with each other and maybe fight to show they're a part of this hell thing.
That's interesting. That but that's not how these things work because again, these people are geeky. They're they're territorial, right? So they're like, "We don't care. Donna doesn't belong here.
We can access, right? So what's the only path forward now?" Are they able to resolve this conflict by themselves? No. Okay. So God has to intervene now, right?
Okay. All right. Let's keep keep on going. Kanto 9. The color cowardice displayed in me when I saw that my guide was driven back made him more quickly mask his own new power.
So he's very disappointed. He was not able to convince the demons. Okay, keep on going.
He stood alert like an attentive listener because his eyes could hardly journey far across the black air and the heavy fog. We have to win this battle, he beca he began. if not but one so great had off offered help. How slow that someone's coming to see me. But I saw well enough how he had covered his first words with the words that followed after so different from what he had said before.
Nevertheless, his speech made me afraid because I drew out from his broken phrase a meaning worse perhaps than he'd intended. Does anyone from the first circle, one whose only punishment is crippled hope, ever descend so deep in this sad hollow? That was my question. and he answered, "So it is
220:04quite rare for one of us to go along the way that I have taken now, but I in truth have been here once before." That savage witch, Erictho, he who she who called the shades back to their body, summoned me. My flesh had not been long stripped off when she had me descend through all the rings of hell to draw a spirit back from Judas's circle. That is the deepest and the darkest place, the farthest from the heaven that girds all. So rest assured, I know the pathway well. The swamp that breeds and breathes the giant stench surrounds the city of the sorrowing which now we cannot enter without anger.
And he said more, but I cannot remember because my eyes had wholly taken me to that high tower with the glowing summit where at one single point there suddenly stood three infernal furies fleck with blood who had the limbs of women and their ways. but wore as girdles snakes of deepest green, small serpents and horned vipers formed their hairs, and these were used to bind their beastial temples. And he who knew these handmmaids well they served the queen of never- ending lamentation said, "Look at the ferocious Arinis, that is Mera on the left, and he who weeps upon the right, that is Alto between them. He was done. Each fury tore her breast with talent nails, each with her palms, beat on herself, and wailed so loud that I in fear drew near the poet.
Just let Medusa come. Then we shall turn him into stone. They all cried, looking down. We should have punished Thissus's assault. Turn round and keep your eyes shut fast.
For should the Gorgon show herself and you behold her, never again would you return above, my master said. And he himself turned me around and not content with just my hands, used his as well to cover up my
222:04eyes. Oh, you possessed of sturdy intellects observed the teaching that is hidden here beneath the veiled verses so obscure. And now across the turbid waves their past are whereboantic frockets poured sound enough to make both of the shorelines quake. A sound no other not other than a winds when wild because it must contend with warmer currents. It strikes against the forest without let shattering, beating down, bearing off branches as moves proudly clouds of dust before it and puts to flight both animals and shepherds.
He freed my eyes and said, "Now let your optic nerve turn directly toward that ancient foam there, where the mist is thickest and most accurate." As frogs confronted by their enemy, the snake will scatter underwater till each hunches in a heap along the bottom. So did the thousand ruined souls I saw take flight before a figure crossing sticks who walked as if on land and with dry soul. He thrust away the thick air from his face, waving his left hand frequently before him. That seemed the only task that wearied him. I knew well he was heaven's messenger and I turned around my master and he made a sign that I be still and bow before him.
How full of high disdain he seemed to me. He came up to the gate and with a wand he opened it for there was no resistance. Oh you cast out of heaven hated crowd were his first words upon that horrid threshold. Why do you harbor this presumptuousness? Why are you so reluctant to endure that will whose aim can never be cut short and which so often add into your hurts?
What good is it to thrust against the fates your server, if you remember well, for that had both his throat and chin stripped clean. At that he turned and took the filthy road and did not speak to us, but had
224:05the look of one who is obsessed by other cares. than those that press and not those before him. And we moved forward onto on into the city in safety, having heard his holy words. We made our way inside without a struggle. And I who wanted so much to observe the state of things that such a fortress guarded.
As soon as I had entered, looked about, I saw on every side a spreading plane of a lamentation and atrocious pain. Just as at Arl where Rome becomes a marsh, just as at Pola near Cornero's Gulf that closest Italy and bathes its borders, the seokulers make all the plain uneven. So they did here on every side, except that here the seokulers were much more harsh. For flames were scattered through the tombs, and these had kindled all of them to glowing heat. No artisan could ask for hotter iron.
The lid of every tomb was lifted up, and from each tomb such sorry cries arose as could come only from the sad and hurt. And I, master, who can these people be buried in great chests of stone like these must speak by way of size and agony? And he to me, here are our heretics and those who followed them from every sect. Those tombs are much more crowded than you think. here like like has been and supposed with like some monuments are heated more some less and then he turned around and to his right we passed between the torments and high wall.
Okay. So um Virgil and Donnie cannot pass into this and in fact there are furies and Medusa who threatened them. Okay. So what saves them is the arrival of an angel who forces um this to be opened and the demons flee. How does Virgil feel about this?
226:06How does he feel? You're in trouble. You can't solve a problem. God sends an angel to help you. How how would you feel?
Embarrassed. When angel comes and saves you, you feel embarrassed.
Um, well, so, uh, Virgil is supposed to be really know his way around hell.
Yes.
And be buds with everyone and have control, but here it's something that he can't do. So, it's kind of embarrassing that he couldn't do that completely on his own.
And so, he's embarrassed, right? So, what does this tell us about Virgil? He has a ego.
Yeah. He's very proud. Does that make sense? Because like if any of us were in trouble, right, and we pray to God, please come save us. An angel comes and saves us, we'd be eternally grateful, right?
We'd be like, "Oh, wow. I will now dedicate myself to loving God for the rest of my life, and I will spread this message." And and Virgil is like, "And what and and what does Virgil say when the angel arrives? What does he say and do? What does he say? Do Angel came and saved you.
What's the least you can say?
Thank you.
How about thank you, man? Does Virgil do this? He does. He doesn't do anything. didn't see anything.
Okay? Meaning he's tell and this is telling us he's not actually happy about any of this.
Right? Does that make sense? He's not happy about this. Yeah, the problem is solved. He couldn't get through the gates of this and angel came to help him out, but he's not happy about any of this because Virgil is
228:06first and foremost obsessed with control, his ego, his pride, right? He wants to be the top dog. He wants to be one in charge. He wants to be the hero. And so this is very embarrassing for um Virgil.
Okay. So he's putting his own feelings before the larger mission of getting Dante to heaven. Right? Because if if you are really focused on the mission and there's an angel who opens the gates, what what what should you say to this angel? And if you were really focused on the mission, if you really wanted Dante to ascend to heaven and an angel has come and saved you, what would you say to him?
You would say thank you first of all and like what else?
Help.
Yeah, man. Hey, hey, you're going to heaven, right? Hey, take that with you, right? Like, seriously, you came all the way from heaven. You have to go back.
just take that to review. Problem solved. I completed my mission. Does that make sense? The fact that he doesn't say thank you, the fact that he he doesn't even ask the angel for more help suggests that Virgil first and foremost cares about his ego, right?
He wants to be he wants to be the one to take Dante throughout hell. Has he has Dante How well does Virgil know hell? How well does Virgil know hell?
Very well.
Like how well has he been everywhere in hell? Has he been into the deepest darkest areas of hell? Yes. Even to Satan. Do you understand?
Okay. So he knows hell very very well. Okay. So he knows how to traverse hell and he himself has said that he's been to uh every part of hell
230:07even even the deepest darkest circle of hell. All right. So again this is making us wonder who Virgil is what his motivations are and what he he ultimately has planned for Dante. Okay. Any any questions?
Okay. So, um um we are now at the halfway point of our seminar. Okay. So, this is um day six. We start day seven uh tomorrow.
Um we we we will need to go a bit faster. So, for homework again, please reread what we've read, okay? So, you understand what's going on. But also like there are lots of like good short videos on YouTube that introduce inferno because it's it's a it's a very simple section as compared with paradise. Okay, paradise is hard that that's why we had sp spend a lot of time in paradise but inferno it's actually pretty simple.
Okay. So make sure like you um do learn about uh inferno. Okay. Yes.
There are reason why I do feel going from paradise to inferno. Inferno is much more I wouldn't call it approachable but it's easier to kind of go through and kind of follow the story as opposed to the concepts that you have to grasp in paradise.
Yes.
Right.
Like literature-wise is there like a it intended that way?
I I think it is because remember um what what Donnie will do is first publish the infernal. Okay. And at this time in history Donnie is not a well-known person. He's not a very powerful person, right? So, he wants to make sure that first of all, whatever he writes is appealing, right?
That people will want to um read it and buy the manuscript, but also he's
232:08trying to um establish himself in a larger poetic tradition, right? And that means using famous people like Virgil, right? So like if if if if it's like Dante in hell, like who cares, right? But it's like Virgil taking Dante in hell, that's an actually interesting cell to people. Okay.
So so so so for him it's like, you know, how does he get people interested in the story he's trying to convey? And that's why, as you point out, the story in Inferno, it's much more interesting. It's much more visual than paradise. Okay. But ultimately he wants us he wants to take us all to paradise.
And to do that you first need to uh establish a really compelling story. Okay. With really famous people. Okay. So uh and and honestly this is why uh in universities it's mainly inferno that's taught and not paradise.
Okay. Because paradise it's actually much more it's really philosophy as opposed to literature. Whereas inferno it's very literary. Okay. It's a great story, lots of interesting characters, it's very visual, it's very funny, it's very interesting.
Okay. So, thank you for that. But, but again, we're trying we're trying to really understand uh Dante's Cosmology. Okay. Yes.
Um Dante's Inferno reminds me a lot of uh the Chinese uh novel Journey to the West.
Okay.
In the way that it's first of all, they're both a journey. Second of all, they both meet monsters and demons and angels and myth mythic creatures. And third of all, they have a very big impact on the society and the culture and they're both really old. Um
yeah,
like for example, the way that Journey to the West is interesting to read because, you know, they're fighting demons and uh they're going on a journey. It's in the in a similar way, Inferno is interesting to read because,
234:09you know, there's this master, he's bringing this other person on a journey and they're trying to get to a destination.
Yeah. No, you're absolutely right in that uh Inferno, it there's much more of a narrative angle to it, right? Whereas in Paradise, it's basically just philosophy. Uh yes.
Yeah. But there's a very big difference is uh the monster in the western journey, uh they are all being protected by by the god by by the you know, some goddess. But uh in the you know uh inferno we can see that it's impossible right because demons or angel they are quite different world they they can't just taking control over each other but I think maybe that is quite quite different. Yeah.
Okay. All right. All right. Any other more questions or or comments? Okay.
All right. So to summarize um we need to go very fast for the last um half of this seminar. Um and so you will have to do a lot more work. Okay. So re I'll review what we learned so far and uh on YouTube there are lots of tutorials, lots of like good intro videos that introduce to you uh inferno.
Okay. As well as so so let's um yeah so just make sure you you understand and and prepare and this will allow for much richer discussion. Okay. And again, Inferno is not that hard to understand as compared with Paradise. And and that's why I hope that you're more able to to contribute individually to it.
So the the game plan for the last half of this uh seminar is for us to imagine that each and every one of us will leave the seminar and we will teach it to someone else. Okay? It could it could be it could be your students because you're teachers, but it could also be your friend. It could also be your child. It it could also be your mother.
Okay? And it doesn't matter. Okay? But imagine yourself after you leave the seminar teaching it to someone that you love. And what I'm going to do
236:11is rather focus too much on the literary meaning of the text because um we've done paradise which is the hardest and so everything else that follows should be pretty simple. What I want to focus more on is giving you the tools to expand your imagination. as well as to teach others. Okay, that's why I wanted to do compare contrast today. Compare contrast is one of the most effective tools that you can use so that we can just say okay well to understand why rain is such an interesting punishment.
Let's think of other punishments, right? Okay. So, I'll be doing more of these um pedagogical techniques as we go uh along. Okay. But for me to do that, we have to stay focused on the task at hand.
Okay? And so come in with a spirit like I'm not here to debate you. I'm not here to argue you. I'm here to learn how to teach this to others. Okay?
So that's the last half of our seminar. Okay? We are we clear? We we've done the hardest part. We've done paradise.
We now know exactly what this poem is trying to do. We have a good conception. Now our goal is to teach it to others. All right. Okay.