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0:00Okay, good morning. We are live in Beijing. Uh, welcome to our very first YouTube live stream. First, I would like to thank Carol um of the Yale Ving Center. She and her team have put everything together.
Uh, and it's been a fantastic uh two weeks with Carol and her team. So, thanks so much, Carol, for putting this together. I would also like to thank everyone uh who is in the room today. Uh some of you some of you have come a very long way. I promise you this will be a very interesting class.
I hope this is a life- transforming experience uh for you. Dante is the greatest writer of all time. Um and third I want to thank everyone uh who is participating in the live stream all around the world. Um, we are having someone monitor the chat. So, if you have a question, feel free to ask a question on chat and we will respond in real time.
So, um, we will begin class. But first, I would like to introduce Carol uh, and maybe introduce your beautiful center.
Thank you. Thank you, John. Um, so hello and welcome. My name is Carol Raerty. Um, I am a Yale College alumni and John's classmate.
Yep.
Um, for those
we we saw each other at Yale.
That's right.
Yeah. For those new to Yale Center Beijing, um Yale Center Beijing since 2014 is Yale University's first universitywide center outside of its campus and a place for intellectual dialogue and the exchange of ideas. Um through workshops such as today, we seek to advance Yale University's mission to create, disseminate, and
2:03preserve knowledge. So why are we here? Jang and I were classmates and schoolmates about 25 years ago. We are now both parents of three children.
Yep. And like many parents, we um wish to not only pass on knowledge to the next generation, but also wisdom, a deeper understanding of what it means to be human. Yale's motto is Luke's atos in Latin and lumin in Hebrew which means light and truth. So through the exploration of Dante and the great books, we hope you will encounter beauty, light, and truth and also be able to wrestle with humanity's oldest questions. What does it mean to be human?
How should we live? What is worth striving for? Um, and that's why we're so excited to be doing this workshop together. and Dante will answer his questions.
Yeah. And without further ado, I'll turn back to um Jang and begin our journey with Dante and the great books.
Okay. Thank you so much. Okay. So um as you can see from the screen, we will be using um this website that anyone can use. It's all free.
Uh the website address is there. Um so the divine comedy is divided into three parts. Infernal, Purgatory and Paradise. What we will do um which is very strange is we we are going to actually start in part three. It will become obvious to you over time why we're doing that.
4:03Okay. So today we are going to start with KTO one of paradise and the translation we will use is manab man. So if you are watching us on the live stream uh please go to the website or you can just actually just watch the screen because we will have the we will have the entire text on the screen. But this web this resource is extremely valuable um and we will be using it this entire two weeks. Okay.
So the first thing I asked you guys to do was write one paragraph about what heaven is. Do we have any volunteers who can share yes what is yes? Go ahead please.
Um
and you'll need to either use a handheld or press down on one of the likes. Yeah.
Uh continuously. Thanks.
Uh heaven is a place of fulfillment, peace, and harmony where every entity can coexist. negative feelings and behavior do not occur. Uh we feel elevated by the fact that it feels like a destination and we are the best versions of ourselves. Uh it's like we're above uh all what we have been through to only keep the best. Heaven has more to my eyes of a feeling aspect than a visual one.
Uh I could still imagine having a bright vibrant colors uh flowers and animals.
Great. That's beautiful. Thank you so much. Anyone else? Yes.
Uh, personally, I do not believe in existence of heaven. Or if by some chance it does exist, I do not believe in it ubiquity.
Yeah, that's something that's what I want though.
And yeah, well, that's a surprise because I didn't think that was the answer you want. Uh, um, if there exists a heaven in any means of the word for any religion, I would think that it's a place of joy, but also of exclusion and stagnation. The ideas of heaven are so radically different from one religion to
6:03another that reconciliation seems impossible in which case heaven must be separated. There is no change in heaven. It being in definition a deathless and perfect place and so heaven is definition. Heaven is a construct comprised of the idea of what is good held by each individual faithful. It is not essentially good except to the one who created it.
It is the ultimate expression of blind faith.
Okay. Um, so that's very interesting because to answer this question, you're using logic and reason. And this is something that they might ask you to do on on AP literature examination. For this class, if we're choosing to embrace Dante, we have to use our intuition and imagination. Okay, that's that's something that u will become much more clear as we read Dante.
But the imagination is what will lead you to the truth. All right. Uh, we have we have someone here. Yes. Um to me paradise is a place for eternal peace and happiness.
There's no past and future just eternal. Everyone there are full of meaning and purpose. The kind of joy and beauty in heaven is unfathomable. All the love and consciousness is intertwined together.
That's beautiful. Yes. So perfection something that is pure joy uh beyond our imagination. Yeah. Good.
Anyone else? Uh, yes.
I think it's where God is. So, it's the typical Christian has a bill view of life everlasting in the presence of God, eternal life, singing and worshiping God and doing whatever you love most in your little house to make sure that God has rewarded you based on what you have done in your present life, I guess.
Yeah. So, that's very interesting because what you just said is exactly what Augustine wrote in the city of God. He explained um heaven as a place where you are right beside God and you're all singing together in unison. Have you read a lost Augustine before?
No.
Okay. But that's a very Augustine answer. Yes.
8:04Hello. Can you hear me?
Think heavens for us to meet God to have a spiritual intellectual connection with God and other divine forces. It's a place where we put down our ego and fear and engage in the act of a salvation and personal enlightenment.
Good. Yeah. So ego and fear are things that bind us to this material world. Thank you. Yes.
Can you hear me? Okay. Uh so as uh if I were in heaven and maybe uh Bruce Lee would lead me into the kung fu universe cuz uh I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee and kung fu and philosophy and uh then I could see my grandma and would smile at me and embrace me into the arms and I also can see the tree like stuffs and which can let people see the messages from the living world and people who come from the living world would be nice to come to this new world and since there's no rule no law but only the people who believe in their faith and destiny and meanwhile also can sense the god or Buddha like who just sitting right there and keep lecturing to the people with the wisdom thoughts and of course there was a boat which can transfer people from the dark sea uh to the other shores and uh there must be ladyike beauty who spend surprise happiness and merry seas to all of them and if people who want to fly must be permitted so uh they could fly high above the ocean and lastly when I was in that world and there was no flash no uh so people don't need to worry about overrated or ugly outlook since everyone looked as light bulb or a luminary existence. So that is my imagination.
Yeah, that's very interesting. So what you're saying is that heaven is individualized meaning that whatever you perceive it is it becomes. Okay, that's very interesting idea. Any more ideas? Okay.
All right. Good. All right. So let's begin. All right.
So we're going to go to candle one of paradise and we're going to use the manalon um transl uh and to set context again there are three
10:06different parts to the divine comedy there's infernal there's purgatory and then there is paradise and what's happening is that the divine comedy it is a pilgrim's journey where Dante is traveling across the univer in order to meet God. And he now has reached paradise. His guide in paradise uh is Beatric, his long lost love. And now they are um flying throughout the cosmos on their way to meet God. And the um heavens is divided into nine different spheres.
Okay? And the point I'm trying to make is that Donniey's perception or conception of the heavens is unique. No one else has imagined heaven the way that Dante has. And no one will probably ever imagine the way uh that he has. Okay.
So what what what we're going to try to do these first two days is try to figure out what Dante's cosmology is, what his understanding of the heavens is and why he has constructed the heavens in the way that he has. Okay. So for the first day, we're going to go very slowly. We're going to establish the themes, the motifs, the concepts that's going to help us truly understand uh the divine comedy. Okay.
So, um, Carol, could you please go ahead and read the first three lines? The Yes.
The glory, the glory of Is it picking up? Okay. The glory of the one who moves all things, permeates the universe, and glows. In one part, more and in another less.
Okay. All right. So um we're going to analyze these three lines. But before I do so, I want to introduce you to two
12:06literary concepts that we that we'll be using a lot uh when we analyze line comedy. The first is the idea of paradox. And this is actually the main literary device that Dante will use for the divine comedy where things are not as simple as they seem. There's a contradiction in the idea and it is your responsibility to try to unpack or reconcile the contradiction and through this process it is going to heighten your imagination and draw you closer to God. Okay.
So, so this is the main literary device we'll be analyzing throughout these two two weeks the ideal paradox. Second idea that we will be looking at is possibilities. Possibilities are created by two concepts. Ambiguity as well as economy. Economy for those of you who study poetry, it just means to use as few words as possible to describe as much as possible.
Ambiguity means that a sentence or word can can contain multiple meanings. Okay. So these are the two major literary devices we will be studying um in the divine comedy. So first question is what's the paradox in these three lines? What is the paradox here?
Yes.
Well, I'm just shooting in the dark here. I'm not sure if I'm right, but I would think that the glory of the one who moves all things. By definition, God is only potent and only present. However, it says in the third line that it permits the universe and glows in one part more and in another less. Meaning that there's inequality even in heaven.
Yeah, that's exactly correct. Okay, that's a paradox. God can be everywhere at once. Yet there are certain parts where he is more and certain parts there
14:10is less. That is a contradiction. That is a paradox. Why would God who is all knowing, allseeing, all powerful, why would the universe be constructed in a way like this? Okay, that's a central paradox that divine is trying to address.
But then what are the possibilities? How can we reconcile this paradox?
Uh, yes.
I think maybe it's because Yeah. Oh, sorry.
I think maybe it's because like for example, God is more present in heaven, but for example, in the infernal, we can because I've read the infernal actually and I can clearly see that like God's presence is less there. So maybe we can reconcile this way. So I think that does this doesn't contradict with his like omnipotence or his omnipresence. It just means that um he's more concentrated in a certain like um dimension,
right? But then the question then is like why does heaven and hell exist? God can make everything perfect, right? So why why not to make everything heaven? Why does he have hell exist?
Uh yes,
because in theology that would be the lack of God and the lack of God's presence. So there's free choice and free wills and then there should be a heaven and a hell.
Yes, that that's the correct answer. Yes, there has to be. If you are to allow for free will, you must allow for heaven and hell to exist. Can you explain why?
Because if everything is heaven, then there is no free choice. If there's choice, then there will be consequence and there will be the wrong choice, I guess. And what happens with the wrong choice is probably hell or the lack of God's presence.
Anyone else? Uh, yes. Yeah, maybe I think because we are just you know your flesh in your body. So if we got body then we must be locked right cuz uh we can't just get out of it. But if if there's possibility that people can get out of your body try to imagine okay I used to have such kind of nightmare when I was uh you know sleeping in my bed and I thought I was
16:10just out of there out of my body that really make me feel so so so so crazy. But what if there's really possibility that people really can get off your body just like consciousness like you know the claw service or something maybe so maybe that's the reason why they have this is because people have their thoughts not only the body the flash but also got idea so they got sauce maybe if the sauce can be existed into another world just like safe safety in the cloud service or what maybe yeah so maybe that is what having means
okay I suppose Yeah.
All right. So this is essential paradox in divine comedy. What does heaven exist? Why does hell exist? Okay.
And it has to do with free will. So keep this in the back of your mind. Okay. These are the paradoxes being created and only by deep reflection, deep observation, by using your intuition in your in your imagination you come to um an answer. Okay.
So this is a central paradox. Okay. We've established that. Let's keep on going. Uh Carol, could you continue to read please?
Um, should I do six or
Yeah.
Okay. I was within the heaven that recedes more of his light and I saw things that he who from that height descends forgets or cannot speak. We're nearing its desired end, our intellect sinks into an abyss so deep that memory fails to follow it.
Okay. So what Don is saying here is that he has reached the heavens uh which receives more of his light and he saw things that from that height descends forgets or cannot speak. Um, how is Dante able to reach such heights? There's a paradox here.
18:15What does enable him to reach such heights that that he's able to achieve heaven? Yes. Is it kind of the inversion because he's already gone through hell so he can then perceive how great heaven is? Yeah, that is a possibility. Um, it is because he suffered pain, because he's seen the worst that he's able to to see um heaven.
Yes, that's a possibility. Good. What What are some other possibilities? Yes.
Maybe he has never lost his love for Beatatrice because Beatatrice is kind of like um like the god-cent angel. So that reflects like his love for God and what the vine gave.
That is true. He has never lost his love his love for Beatric and that's why he is in paradise. But so what what does love enable you to do that allows you to ascend?
I think that God is like the symbol of love. So by like loving Beatatric, he's like there's like still this
Okay. Okay. Let let's be careful with terminology. God cannot be a symbol. God exists, right?
Yeah.
Okay. Okay. Can you keep on going?
So, um I'm I mean I'm not like an expert on this, but I'm just thinking that like because like he's always loving, so he's always like that's kind of like a virtue that he's not.
Okay. So, I want you guys to think about this. Okay. um he's flying but what's propelled him into flight is the imagination right because from that height um once you reach a certain height you either descend or you forget or you cannot speak meaning like your imagination has to reach so far that you might not be able to go even further so
20:15you just descend but you might also forget what you've imagined but the most likely possibility is you can't even describe in words what you've imagined. Okay. So what's really important to understand is that divine company uh comedy it's happening both at a metaphorical as well as a literal level literal in that he actually is in heaven but metaphorical in that he's also imagining all this and both are true at the same time. Okay. And that's what poetry is.
Poetry is both literal and metaphorical at the same time. So I want you guys to keep this in at back of your mind because it's very important to fully understand what's going on. Nearing its entire end, our intellect sinks into an abyss so deep that memory fails to follow it. So Dante is imagining the heavens and he's reached his desired end. Okay, he wants to be with God, but then his intellect, the logic sinks into an abyss.
So think think of a stone that falls into a hole. Okay? It's falling really fast and the memory is a bird trying to catch this stone before it falls. Okay? So that's what he's saying.
He's saying the imagination, the memory are two different things. Okay. Um can you keep on going uh Carol?
Sure.
The next three lines.
Okay. Nevertheless, as much as I within my mind could treasure of the holy kingdom shall now become the matter of my song.
Oh good Apollo, for this final task make me the vessel of your excellence. What you to merit your love Laurel ask? Until this point, one of Parnesus's peaks sufficed for me. But now I face the test. The Aegon that is left.
I need
22:18both correct.
Okay. All right. So, um, let me It's actually context. Okay. There are at least three Dantes in the Divine Comedy.
Okay. There are at least three Dantes in Divine Comedy. The first is the pilgrim, the protagonist who is on this journey. Okay, that's the first Dante. The second Dante is the historical Dante, the person who actually lived and the historical Dante will appear because he'll bring in some other historical figures into my comedy.
These are people he knows. Okay, that's the second Dante. There's a third Dante. Who's the third Dante? Who would be the third on
imaginative?
Excuse me.
Imaginative.
Can you explain what that means?
Impressive.
Like what he imagined himself to be like in heaven or in other places like
Dante?
Yes. Oh, well I don't think that it is he is the essential poet like he is the essence of the poet. He's the archetype.
It's not that hard guys. There's a third Dante. Who is the third Dante?
The first is the character, the protagonist. The second is the historical Dante, the real Dante. And who's the third Dante? Yeah,
I just like the gas one. The dance in the future.
This is not a hard question. Yes.
Uh, the Dante that he imagines himself as.
No, guys. Guys, there's a third Donna. Yes.
Um, the reader.
The reader. No, we're the reader. So,
24:19who's the who who's the third Dante? Uh maybe the holy father, holy son.
No, no, no, no, no. Guys, this is not hard. There's a third Dante. Who is the third Dante?
The author.
The writer.
The guy who wrote this thing. Okay, these are not the same people. There is the protagonist. There is the historical Dante. And there's the writer, the poet.
Okay, let me ask you this question. If it is true that Dante is protagonist, then who's the antagonist? Right? In a book, you have protagonist. You have an antagonist.
Protagonist is Dante. Who's the antagonist?
Satan.
Not Satan. We're in heaven. Satan doesn't exist in heaven. Yes.
Maybe his old self or something that he
Yes, exactly. Can you explain this?
Because when people enter heaven, he's a new made man. So that means he has to die to his old self to enter into this new form of pure existence.
Yeah. So the idea here is that the conflict is between himself. Okay. There is the Dante the pilgrim um who is trying to seek God but there's Dante the pilgrim who has ego and fear and doubts. Okay.
And so this could be a struggle in the heavens. D will have to struggle with himself in order to let go of his ego and his fears to truly understand the meaning of God. Okay. And will be his guide in this. Okay.
So we've established our three Dantes and it's really important for us to understand that Dante the poet, Dante the real person and Dante the uh pilgrim. Who is speaking up? Who's the person speaking?
26:26Who says oh good Apollo for this final task make me the vessel of your excellence. Who's speaking?
Protagonist.
The poet. Right. That's protagonist. The poet. All right.
So, what's happening is that this journey that Donnie went on in the heavens. This is a long time ago. And Donnie the poet is sitting at home wherever he is. He's he's actually in exile. He's trying to remember and write down what he experienced 20 years ago.
Okay, does that make sense? And what he's saying is that what he experienced 20 years ago was so beautiful, so beyond our comprehension that he's lost the memory of what happened 20 years ago. And so now he has to reconstruct, reimagine the experience. And to do that he calls upon not only Apollo but all the muses who um live on the two mountains of paris right. So not just a polo but every possible source of inspiration he will call upon he will invoke in order to truly remember what he experienced 20 years ago.
Okay does that make sense? What's the paradox here? There's a paradox in all this. What is it?
He's Christian.
Yeah, guys, this is a Christian text meant for Christians. This is a Catholic world. The Catholic Church is in charge and he's calling upon Apollo, right? Why is he doing this?
28:28What's he saying here?
Yeah.
So, um this just reminds me of the text of Gregory of Momov who is actually a monk. Like he's literally part of the church. And before he wrote about King offer, he wrote in the prefrase, "Oh, Apollo helped me to write King Offer very well." So, first off, maybe this is like generally accepted within the current social atmosphere to invoke Apollo as an offer to ask him to make her writing really good.
Okay. All right. So, you you just made a statement. Maybe this is just accepted at this time, but we know for a fact it's not accepted at this time. Um, Carol, C, could you go to Google, please?
And what we're going to do is we're going to Google uh medieval Christian art. Okay, we're going to Google Heal Christian art. And we're just going to show images. Okay. When you see the images, it's pretty consistent.
Okay. Can you go to images? Yes. Okay, guys. Can you see the images?
There are lots and lots of images. This This is all Christian art. What do you not see? He was Jesus.
You don't see the common man.
Exactly. Okay. You don't see any man. These are all saints or just figures from the Bible. Okay.
That's point one. There is no common man in any of this. What's number two? What what what's the stark difference? These are all Christian figures, right?
There's no paganism in any of these paintings. You don't have great gods. You don't have a poll anywhere. Keep on looking. There's It doesn't exist.
Why? Because the church banned these things, right? Okay.
30:29So, yes, um um there are Christians who doing bokea polo, but it's not a common thing. it's it's banned by the uh church. Okay. So, um one thing to keep in mind is that broad history, elite education is very different from popular art. Okay.
What the elite study at university is going to be very different from what you see in popular culture. Um and so the way they reconcile this is that at this time in issue this this this year 1321 when Dante um is is publishing the divine comedy or uh making it public 1321 um the elite learn and Latin is a secret language of elite right and there you can like invoke a polo and like it doesn't really matter and then there is the vernacular right what people experience in everyday life and that is heavily censored. Now what is revolutionary of divine comedy is that it is written not in Latin which is the language of elites. It's written in the vernacular in kuskin which is what every ordinary person can read and access. Okay.
So this is a divine prominent in in many ways. It's act of revolution. It was written in Latin. This will not be a problem. But it's it was written in a vernacular.
Okay? And this is why divine comedy will become the blueprint for not just the Renaissance, the Italian Renaissance, but all of modernity itself because the ideas now in comedy become central to modernity and the renaissance. The other thing that's really important about art and popular culture at this time is there are no
32:29protagonists. Sorry, no there are protagonist of divine comedy a common man Dante. Okay, individualism, individuality. So all these concepts we take for granted today were actually uh revolutionary and it was daunting who would launch this revolution. Okay.
So this is not just a poem. It's an intellectual revolution. Okay. It's an act of courage. It's an act of faith.
All right. So uh let's let's continue to read. Um, Carol, enter into my breast.
Enter into my breast within me. Brief the very power you made manifest when you drew Marcus out of his limbs sheath.
Okay. So, okay. Good. So, the thing about about divine comedy is that there are a lot of illusions in here. Okay.
So, um, what Donnie is going to do is he's going to reference a lot of mythology surrounding, uh, Apollo. So, Apollo, um, had a competition with another, uh, poet, Marcus, and they basically uh, had a competition about who who would be the better poet, and Marcus lost and Apollo basically skinned him alive. Okay. It's it's it's it's a pretty gruesome story, but um there's a lot of mythology be driven being driven into here. Okay.
Uh keep on going.
Oh godly force, if you so lend yourself to me that I might show the shadow of the blessed realm inscribed within my mind.
So again, this is Kerdosco where he is invoking a polo in order to describe a
34:31Christian heaven. Okay, you want to go in?
Then you would see me underneath the tree you love. There I shall take as crown the leaves of which my theme and you shall make me worthy.
What's a tree that Apollo loves? Do you guys know?
Laurel.
The Laurel tree. Yes. Can Can you Who who said who said that?
Okay. Can Can you do you know the legend here?
And press the microphone.
Yeah. So basically Apollo had a lover and the lover
No, no, no. He didn't have a lover.
Oh,
yeah. He had someone he loved, right?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. He had Oh, yeah. Right. It never became a lover, right?
So, uh he had someone he loved and uh that person did not want to be his lover.
Japanese is her name.
Yeah. And basically uh basically that person told was running from Apollo because Apollo was chasing her and that person told Athena uh oh please don't let Apollo be my daughter and Athena turned her into a la tree and Apollo can no longer be her lover
right but Apollo loved her so much that he also um makes la tree his symbol right
so if you are a champion of poet he gives you the laurel leaves Right. So, um, not only is Dante invoking Apollo, asking for his divine power, but he is also remembering or reciting the stories that make Apollo famous. Okay. Um, what point is he trying to make here? Why is he doing this?
Yes. Um
I wonder if he's trying to reinvent
36:32heaven on the concept of paradise that it's not just a Christian paradise, but it could also coexist with the Greek idea of heaven or gods maybe.
Right. The problem though is that the Greeks didn't have a concept of heaven. Right.
Yeah. is more Olympus. But yeah, not really.
The Greeks didn't have heaven.
So, so what is he trying to do here?
So, what so for Dante um he is trying to think about what creativity is. Right? He's trying to think about what knowledge is. And for him, if you're truly to have knowledge, if you're truly to exercise your imagination, what would you need to do? And how would that be different from the teachings of the Catholic Church at this time in history?
Yeah. Well, he gives me the impression of someone who worships enlightenment regardless of source. So, he is seeking the the truth like regardless of source. It could be Apollo, it could be God. He'll take whatever will show you the truth.
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's correct. Right. The idea is if you really want to know the truth, you have to be open-minded.
But not only do you have to be open-minded, but you have to rigorously draw on from different traditions. Okay? Because these traditions exist for a reason and you need to combine these traditions in in order to reach a truth. And guess what guys, this becomes the basic premise of the Ren Renaissance, right? Okay.
So, uh, Carol, can we can we do a Google
38:33search?
Sure.
Renaissance art. Okay. So, we this is Christian art, right, you guys? It's pretty static. It's just depictions of biblical passages, right?
But when you go to Renaissance art, you see how vibrant it is. It's drawing from different traditions. Okay. So, um can you show this? Okay.
Uh give me the uh the uh yeah the school of Athens. Okay. So, this is one of the most famous Renaissance paintings, the school of Athens. Okay. Uh we Yes, I I I see you, Peter.
But but but okay, look, the school of Athens, right? is drawing from all possible traditions. You just look at this painting and we don't have time to look at this painting but there it's not just Christian thinkers, it's Muslim thinkers, it's pagan thinkers. Okay. And the idea is implanted in the divine comedy.
This will not this video would not been possible without Dante. Okay. It was Dante who basically said we're truly to know God. We're truly discover the truth. We must embrace all possible religions, all possible philosophies.
Um, uh, yes. Did do you have a question?
Okay. Uh, Peter, we have question from the live stream.
Uh, so live stream right now is not working well. So,
okay. I mean, it's fine. We we we we we have the video camera, right?
Yeah.
Okay. It's fine. What I mean like Yeah. It's just in Yeah. Okay.
Well, we we'll continue. Okay.
All right. So, do do you see what's happening? Okay. We have now this radical leap from Christian medieval art to renaissance art. You can see the vastness of the difference.
It's daunting that's doing this. Okay. Yes.
Um I remember going to Italy and then I
40:34remember seeing the middle medieval art. The babies look really scary because I think uh the the church guy explained that baby is supposed to be Jesus when he was a baby, but when he was a baby, he was still this like divine figure. So that's why they drew him like a middle-aged man. But in Renaissance art, they start drawing like baby faces and real human proportions like this idea of individuality as you expressed earlier. So they started trying to see humans as they really are rather than what spiritually like religiously they should represent.
Yeah. Exactly. So the major difference between uh medieval art and renaissance art is that with medieval evil art you're trying to condition the Christian in a certain mentality uh one of fear and humility to be always afraid but also to to be humble before God. Whereas renaissance what and the renaissance becomes the uh launching pad for our journey because the renaissance is trying to activate the human imagination. Okay.
And try and the way you do that is you make humans the central character in the story of humanity. Okay. Uh and that's what's happening in Dante where Dante makes himself the central character and this is again unique at this time. Um, but also you're trying to show the beauty and the power of the human imagination. Okay.
All right. All right. Uh, let's keep on uh going. Uh, sorry. Did you have a question?
No, I just have a comment about I think he's quite advanced in his theology that he believes if you want to invoke the truth, you have to draw from many sources, but the fact that it's from Greek as well. It's kind of the same as how Christianity started with Jesus being born from Virgin Mary, which is a very Greek kind of uh storyline. So maybe he's trying to show his theology ideas that Jesus, you know, like the Christian God himself, you know, uses a
42:34Greek traditional way to make people know that he's the son of God.
Okay. All right. So, a couple comments. First of all, uh let's try to precise Mermanology. He is not a theologian.
He is a poet. This is poetry not theology. Okay, there's a lot of theology, there's a lot of philosophy in this, but it's poetry. This is a major difference. Okay, theology is trying to explain religion.
Poetry is to activate the imagination. Okay, the religious imagination. That's point one. Point two is everything that you're saying is not raw, but you're saying it from the year 2026. And this was written in the year 1321.
Okay? And so back then people just have very different conception of the universe. Basically um at this point in history um the Catholic Church is trying to create a Christian theology that is self-contained. Okay. that is distinct from all other traditions and is in conflict with other traditions especially the Muslim tradition which is at this point in history the most powerful religious tradition in the world.
Okay. So keep this in keep this in mind guys. A lot of things you think uh it could be because you're looking at it from a 2026 lens. All right. But remember this year 1321.
Okay. So, it's hard to do, but keep this at the back of your mind. Okay. All right. Any more comments or questions before I move on.
Okay, let's keep on going.
So, seldom, father, are those garlands gathered for triumph ruler or poet, a sign of fault or shame in human wills. that when punan branches can incite someone to long and thirst for them, the light must fill the happy delta deity.
44:34So he's again talking to Apollo, right? He's calling him father, not capital f father, but father. Okay. So he is um um invoking Apollo as a lesser god. Where's your sacage by the way in in this world?
Okay. Uh keep on going. Great fire can follow a small spark. There may be better voices after me to pray to Sarah's god parade.
S god's Apollo
that he may answer. The lantern of the world approaches mortals by varied paths.
Landon of the world is the sun, right? Which is Apollo and Apollo can reach you through different paths. And he's trying to invoke Apollo, right? He's trying to reach Apollo. You want to go?
But on that way which links four circles with three crosses, it emerges joined to a better constellation and along a better course and it can temper and stamp the world's wax war in its own manner.
Okay, so let's try to unpack what's going on. Okay, so he's saying he wants to reach Apollo. He wants to uh summon and invoke Apollo. And there are many ways you can do that. But the way that links four circles with three crosses is the best way.
Okay. So now what what we're going to do is we're going to try to figure out what the four crosses with sorry four circles with three crosses is. And by the way um everything that I am saying is my own interpretation. Okay. Uh but I think that it's really important to figure out what four circles and three crosses are.
Okay. So you basically have uh four circles and three crosses. Four circles, three crosses. All right. So and now what what we're going to try to do is use your imagination to figure out what this thing is.
Okay. All right. So uh
46:36let's try to make this simp simple as possible. Three crosses. What are the three crosses? Yes.
The holy trinity. Think like the trinity of God or the son the father. Oh like the trinity.
No that's not that's that that's not what the trinity is. Come on. The three cross is no one pure Christian. Yes.
I'm I'm Christian. Is when Jesus died like
Yes. Yes. Do you understand? When Jesus died, he died on the cross with two other people. Okay.
That's what the three crosses are. It's Jesus, right? This is Jesus on Mount Calvary, right? That's pretty obvious. What are the four circles?
This is harder. Yes. Maybe the four elements, water, fire, earth, wind.
Yes, that is a possibility. But the circles, it's four, right? You It's four. Four elements. But what the circles at?
When you think circle, what do you think?
Spheres. spheres, right? Planets, sun, right? So, four suns is what? Problem of four season, right?
Okay. Okay. So, this is the um Okay, so again, it's really important we figure this out. Okay. The four equinoxes, right?
Okay. So, you have the two equinoxes as well as the two solstesses and then that would be the four seasons. Okay. So, that's what these four circles really are. Then you have the three crosses.
Okay. We and the three crosses we know are uh Jesus. What tradition cares a lot about the two equinoxes and two solstices?
48:37Pagan.
Exactly. the pagan tradition. Okay. So now we have a paradox. What's a pagan tradition doing with the Christian tradition?
Christian tradition is clearly the three crosses. The four circles are clearly the pagan tradition. There's a paradox here. Okay. All right.
So let's figure out this paradox. If you were to be transport transported back 3,000 years into the pagan world. Okay. Can someone explain what the pagan world is like and how you would be you would feel I don't actually like this place? You would feel uncomfortable in the pagan world.
Why? What makes the pagan world different from our world? Yes.
Uh so I'm just to preface this. I am neopagan. So some of my idealizations of paganism might be well idealized but what I think is that uh paganism is more primal and more varied. So we're used to a Anglo-Christian world. We're used to a homogeneous world.
We're used to people agreeing with our ideas and when they don't we argue with them. uh the pagan world is more almost more tolerant in in a way like there's more gods there's more opinions and you're likely to lie to someone who don't with you.
Okay. So, so this is confusing because neopaganism, the modern pagan world, um, it embraces many different ancient traditions, including Judism, animism, but throughout most of human history, if you're a pagan, what idea, what thing were you most concerned with? What were you really concerned with as a pagan? Yes.
That you don't upset the gods.
Why? Well, because well, you can't not upset the gods.
50:37Okay. How did you make your living? What did you What What did you did? What did you do for a living?
Farming.
Farming. Right.
And if you upset the gods, they have a drought or a huge rainstorm and all of your crops are gone.
Exactly. Right. Would you be comfortable in this world? Why not? Why would you be comfortable in this world of paganism?
Yes.
Well, you constantly live in fear.
You constantly live in fear.
No, like if they if you're doing the right thing or not.
Yes. Right. You have absolutely. Yes.
Uh more essentially, I think it's the ambiguity. You have to be comfortable with not knowing what the gods want to do to you. Right. So, yes.
And you can't predict the actions of your fellow human beings as well as in
you may have to turn it on. Sorry.
You can't predict the actions of your fellow human beings as well as you would in a Christian conservative.
Right. So, the reality is that in the pagan agricultural world, okay, where the focus is on fertility, you have absolutely no agency, right? You have no individuality. Life is passive for you. Okay?
It's not about what you can do. It's really about appeasing the gods, right? So, there's really no individuality. It's really hard for you to be um creative or to make your mark on the world, right? So, yes.
But uh I have a question here. Like you just told us earlier that medieval Christian art and even the Catholic Church in Dante's time uh suppressed creatively and promoted God-fearing humility. So how is that different?
Okay, that's a good question. So we're
52:38talking about medieval Christian Europe in the year 1300, right? But this is referring to Jesus at the time of his crucif crucifixion which is about the year 33 around 33. Okay. All right. What?
Okay. You for the Christians in this room what why did Jesus have to die? Why was his conviction his death such a historical event? Why? Yes.
Because there's no way for man himself to atone for his sins and man cannot um be sinless, stainless, so to pay the price for his actions. So,
and what what was Jesus?
So, Jesus was the faultless lamb who can die for people.
No, no, no. What was Jesus?
Son of God.
Yes.
So, God himself has to come.
The son of God who is what?
Who is the Messiah? was sinless,
who is but but but but is he a man or is he not a man?
He's both. So he's
exactly you understand this. Okay, you understand this is important. He is both son of God and he's a man as well. You understand? Okay.
And it's it if you're not a Christian, it's kind of weird, but for like 2,000 years they argued about this. Okay. But Jesus, if if you want to understand Christianity, you need to understand that Jesus was both a man as well as a God. And if you're a man and you're able to redeem all humanity, now you have agency. Right?
Now, you're are able to mark a new period in human history. So, what's happened is that in the pagan worldview, the universe is a circle. It's a procession of equinoxes, okay? It's an endless seamless
54:38uh cycle. Okay? Like the like the seasons, there's winter, which gives rise to spring, which gives rise to summer, then autumn, and so on and on and on. There's nothing you can do about it. Okay?
But with Jesus, the circle now becomes a line, right? The circle becomes a line. So when you put together the four circles and the three crosses, you get a new beginning of human history in which the individual matters now. Yes. But but that was what the Catholic Church wanted to suppress, right?
Like this this knowledge that you can free yourself. So the Catholic Church said, "No, you need us to get to heaven."
Right. So exactly. So and this is what Donnie is saying. He's saying that the Catholic Church and Jesus and Christianity, these aren't necessarily the same things. Okay.
All right. So with his poetry, Dante is trying to create a new understanding of Christianity. And this again is what gives rise to ren the R renaissance as well as modernity. Okay. But it doesn't make sense to you.
Okay? And what and what he's doing that's really important is he's creating paradoxes, right? What is what's why is paganism a symbol of paganism, the four circles, why is it linked to the symbol of Christianity, the the three crosses? And the answer is because for humanity to progress, you need both traditions in place. Okay?
Without wrap these traditions together, there is no path to enlightenment. There is no path to Apollo. This is the best path possible. Okay, does that make sense? And again, this is my interpretation.
Poetry can only be interpreted. Okay. And I'm sure there's been a lot of Dant scholars who are being very angry at me for making this interpretation,
56:39but I think this is a possible interpretation that aligns with other things that Dante will say throughout the divine comedy. Okay, are we clear? Yes.
So, uh, in summary, the idea is like the sun shines on the world and it doesn't just shine on Christians, it shines on everyone.
That's what Donnie believes. Okay. But what what else what he's going to do later on that is even more revolutionary is say it's not God's choice whether or not to shine on you. It's your choice whether you want God to shine on you or not. Does that make sense?
All right. Um but this this comes later. All right. So any more questions before we move on? Okay, let's let's continue.
Um,
its entry from that point of the horizon brought morning there and evening here.
So, you saw coming from the sun, right?
Almost all of that hemisphere was white, while ours was dark. When I saw Beatatrice turn around and left that she might see the sun, no eagle has ever stared so steadily at it. And as a second ray will issue from the first and reassend. Much like a pilgrim who seeks his home again, so on her action, fed by my eyes to my imagination, my action drew, and on the sun I set my sight more than we usually do. More is permitted to our powers there than is permitted here.
By virtue of that place made for mankind as its true home. I did not bear it long, but not so
58:40briefly as not to see it sparkling round about like molten iron emerging from the fire. And suddenly it seemed that day had been added to day as if the one who can had graced the heavens with a second son. Okay.
The eyes of Beatatrice were all intent on the eternal circles. From the sun, I turned aside. I set my eyes on her. And watching her within me, I was changed. As Glock has changed, tasting the herb that made him a companion of the other sea gods.
Okay. So fit something that's really confusing about the divine comedy is that different universes are existing in parallel to each other right so there is the universe of the Greeks right where Paul was the sun now he's switching to the Christian universe where God is the sun okay so all these universes are existing in parallel with each other um and the reason why is that we are in heaven in we are in um paradise and so this is the spirit world. Okay. So let me ask you this question. It's a hard question but think about this.
Pretend you're a ghost or a spirit. Okay. Can you perceive time and space? Is it possible for you to perceive time and space?
Yes. No, because I mean you're immortal or like you live forever. Why would you perceive be able to perceive time then? I mean but it wouldn't make sense, right? If like spirits never die or for they they've always been there since the universe existed.
Well, I understand, but you you can
60:40still keep time, right? Why can't you perceive time and space? The answer is no. You can't perceive time and space. There's a really good reason why you cannot.
Do you guys have you guys thought about this? Yes. Our thing is because you can't interact with time and space. Your soul is immune to the influences of time and space. You don't have a body to be uh battered on the wall and stuff.
Yeah. So the trick the key is to understand that a body is impossible for you to understand time and space. Okay. And this is what Em tells us what time and space is. Is space is sensation.
Sensation is made possible with the five senses. Okay. Distance is because you have a body. You have a body, you wouldn't have a con conception of distance. Okay?
And what time is, time is sequence, which is cause and effect. Caused by sensation, right? I first had this feeling, then I have that feeling. That's time. So, a body is impossible for you to experience time and space.
Okay? So, we are in a universe where time and space don't exist. Evan exists at once and forever. Okay, different universes exist at the same time. This is why all this is possible.
And what Donnie is doing is he's using words to decipher this universe to make it comprehensible to us because we are stuck in time and space but they are beyond time and space. Okay, does that make sense? Okay. Yes. And how are these like spirits invoked or are are they like everywhere like at the same time or like how are these spirits involved in in humans or like because uh is it through emotions?
I I don't have a question. Can you repeat that?
Yeah, like these spirits there's there's multiple, right? So um and in the Greek world they I mean in the Greek world you you would say they they did have a body because you know there's all these gods that came down to
62:42earth so they had to like inhabit a body in the end but the Greek world in the Greek world what happened was these spirits took possession you understand they didn't come to us as material forms they took possession of animals like zeus or they took possession of people, right?
But where then then they were a able to receive time and space.
That's right. But only if they they can take possession of your of someone's body.
Okay.
Okay. Does that make sense? Right. So that's what he's doing. He's trying to have Apollo possess him.
So he's able to use the powers of Apollo. Okay. All right. Uh let's keep on going. Passing beyond the human cannot be worded.
Let gauus serve as simile until grace grant you the experience. Whether I only was the part of me that you created last you governing the heavens know it was your life that raised me. When that wheel which you make eternal through the heavens longing for you drew me with the harmony you temper and distinguish. The fire of the sun then seemed to me to kindle so much of the sky that rain or river never formed so broad a lake. The the nearness of the sound and the great light incited me to learn their cause.
I was more keen than I had ever been before. And she who read me as I read read myself to quiet the commotion in my mind opened her lips before I opened mine.
Okay. All right. So So do you guys understand the sequence of events? Right. So he starts off invoking a poll and says I had this great dream or experience 20 years ago.
Please Apollo give me the power to describe what I saw
64:45with words because what I saw was beyond time and space. It is beyond the imagination of ordinary mortals. Okay. Like like us the readers today. Okay.
And now what he's doing is he's now describing as a pilgrim his experience 20 years ago with Beatatric. Okay. Keep on going. opened her lips before I opened mine to ask. And she began, "You make yourself accused with false imagining.
You cannot see what you would see if you dispelled it. You're not on the earth as you believe, but lightning flying from its own above is less swift than you are returning home."
Okay, so they are in the heavens, which is beyond time and space. But in order for Dante to understand what's going on, the universe has constructed the universe in a way for Dante to process. So it's linear. There is a bit of time and space. Okay.
And what Beatric is say is saying to her to him basically is here you have to completely rely on your intuition and your imagination. Okay? Do not try to use logic. Do not try to take what you learn in on earth and apply it here. It will just confuse you.
Okay. So before you can meet God, we have to go on this journey to dispel your false imaginings. Okay. Let go of your ego, let go of your doubts, let go of your fear so that you can truly embrace God. Yes.
I don't know if this is going to be talked about later, but is this kind of also an allegory for Christianity? because some sort of Christian apologists have argued before that uh
66:46obviously faith is what you need to for for Christianity by using logic that's where we can sort of afford it to sit um he will address this later on okay he will talk to Paul who is the person who says this right Paul faith is um um uh to believe without without evidence um Yes. We'll talk about this later on. Yes. Okay.
All right. Any more questions before we go on? Are you guys following along because it gets harder and harder. Okay.
Well,
yes.
Well, like I have a quite innocent question. I just feel curious like why there's no need for logic to have it because it seems like in order maybe for communication in the world, I think it's necessary to have it anywhere, right? Because I mean if people don't do not use logic for their like daily conversation, how could that be? I mean in any place help me answer this question.
Yeah.
Uh so you're in heaven, you're in spirit. Your body is not there. You don't need to move your uh teeth, move your meat crab to talk. You could just telepath it around.
Yeah, I know. I mean I mean it doesn't means like you have to physically to make a sound or vibrant to like let others to receive your message. But I mean because like even if you're a spirit, you still have your counselors, right? So how could you guys like using the to make your counselors have the agreements even if you don't have you don't have to use the logic?
Yeah, that's ex that's exactly the point. You you don't have to make people agree with you. And you can just think about it and everyone will understand what they what you mean.
Yes. Oh yeah. Because uh I think Bruce Lee used to just said that don't think feel. So maybe I think Bruce Lee just
68:48like kind of philosopher right just said just like maybe like Dant said don't think feel.
Okay. All right. So so so let me answer your question. Okay. Because this is a question that most high school students are going to have.
Um, if you're in high school, logic does matter because you have to take tests. Okay, but that's the point of logic to take tests and to pass test and make the teacher give you a good grade. Okay, logic is system we develop in order to uh control the way you behave and think in our world. Okay. But our world is just a subset of the entire universe and quite honestly um there are many issues with logic.
Okay. So for example um mathematics and science um really constrain your capacity to perceive the the world and this something that will become much more clear as you continue to read the B comedy. Okay. All right. Um but but but what Donnie will say is that logic are like changed chains.
Okay. To keep you in a certain mindset. Imagination is like a bird that can float around everywhere. And so to truly understand God to truly understand divine comedy, you have your mind has become almost like a bird and just fly around and follow your intuition. Okay.
All right. Uh, let's keep on going.
While I was freed from my first doubt by these brief words, she smiled to me. I was yet caught in new perplexity. I said, I was content already. After such great wonder, I rested.
Great. Sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. Okay.
All right. So um while I was brief my first thought doubt by these brief words
70:48she smiled to me. I was yet caught in proximity. Okay. So what is his first doubt?
Am I really here?
Okay. Yes. Okay. Yeah. He's not okay.
Anyone else? What is his doubt? It's really I'm not Am I really here? He's not sure where he is. Right.
Okay. And what Patient is telling him is that we are in a new universe that is beyond time and space. Okay. So they're going to go visit the moon and Venus and the sun and Jupiter and Saturn. These are not our Jupiter our Saturn.
Okay. Okay. These are metaphor metaphors. This is another universe. Okay.
That's his first um doubt. Okay. But once you have this first doubt, what other questions might you have? Can I stay
to me?
Uh, can I stay?
Can I stay?
Do I belong
to me?
I belong in this realm.
Yeah. How does this realm work?
Yeah.
How did I get up there?
Yeah. Like it's it like this first thing like we're in a new universe. It raises all sorts of different questions. Okay. And so this is what makes Dante Dante's conception of the universe unique because heaven it is not perfection.
It is not the end. It's just another journey. It's just another place for you to ask questions. Okay. Does that make sense?
All right. So, um yeah.
72:52Okay. Uh can can you keep on reading? Uh Carol,
sure. I said I was content already after such great wonder. I rested. But again, I wonder how my body rises past these lighter bodies.
Okay, so he's trying to figure out how this universe works, right? Because you're flying throughout the cosmos. And he's like, why am I flying? Right? He's completely confused by what's going on.
But but again, what what's important to understand is like there is no time and space in this universe. Time space has construct has been constructed for B's personal benefit so that he can he can understand what's going on. All right. Does that make sense? Okay.
Keep on going.
At which after a sigh of pity she settled her eyes on me with the same look a mother casts upon a bathing child and she began. All things among themselves possess an order. And this order is the form that makes the universe like God. Here do the higher beings see the imprint of the internal worth which is the end to which the pattern I have mentioned tense. Within that order, every nature has its bent according to a different station nearer or less near to its origin.
Therefore, these natures move to different forts across the mighty sea of being, each given the impulse that will bear it on. This impulse carries fire to the moon. This is the motive force in mortal creatures. This binds the earth together, makes it one. Not only does the shaft shot from this bow strike creatures lacking intellect, but those who have intelligence and who can love.
Right? So, so what what you're saying here is that God created the universe in
74:52a certain structure. Okay? And God permeates the entire universe and touches all. Okay? And there is a logic of reason of co coherence to the universe.
What Danti is going to do is try to figure out what this logic is. What is the organizing principle of the universe? Why is God construct the world the way he has? Okay, you want to go and this is true even in heaven. Okay, so there's a hierarchy even in heaven.
Going
the providence that has arrayed all this forever quiets with its light that heaven in which the swiftest of the spheres revolves to there as toward a destined place we now are carried by the power of the bow that always aims its shaft at a glad mark. Yet it is true that even as a shape may often not accord with art's intent, since matter may be unresponsive, death, so from this course the creature strays at times because he has the power once impelled to swerve elsewhere. As lightning from a cloud is seen to fall, so does the first impulse. When man has been diverted by false pleasure, turn him toward earth. You should, if I am right, not feel more marvel at your climbing than you would, were you considering a stream that from a mountain's height falls to its base.
It would be cause for wonder in you if no longer hindered you remained below as if on earth a living flame stood still. Then she again she again turned her gaze heavenly.
Okay. So here she's trying to explain how the universe works, how it moves. Okay. Can someone in simple terms explain to me what he's saying here? Can you decipher interpret what she's
76:54saying here? Yes.
Uh God assigned you a bunch of weights. If you're light, you go up. If you're heavy, you go down. If you're light and you're still down, then you should be worried.
Incorrect.
Okay.
Yeah. Good guess though. That's not That's not That's not what she's saying at all. Uh what what what do you think the problem with this would be? Why would Dante take objection to this idea?
You said that God assigns weights, right? Why would Donic be angry about this idea?
Uh, technically he's a human. However, right here, he is like on the doorstep of heaven. So, how did he get there?
Okay, so let's first try to unpack this idea. God assigns weights. Okay, and there are lots of Christians who do believe this. Okay. Um, this is something that John Calvin would argue, but Dante would find this really objectionable.
He'd be very angry at this idea. Why?
Very judgmental.
Exactly. It's unjust. Do you understand? Like, how can you justify giving someone a heavy weight and someone a lightweight? Why would God do that?
What's the rationale for that? And there's also a mention of natures and many forms of natures. So multiple standards, multiple perspectives.
Exactly. Okay. So God shines everywhere. Okay. And God would never be judgmental.
That goes against the nature of God. Okay. So God is not is not judgmental. God is all forgiving, all generous. So that can't possibly be the answer that God has assigned weights.
So what's what's another explanation?
Yes.
But if he didn't sideways and if he isn't judgmental then how are some people in heaven and some people are
78:54infernal?
Yeah. Exactly. But that's what I'm asking you. Yes.
Whereas we give ourselves the weights.
Exactly. Can you explain that?
Well because we have obviously through this conception we have free will. So yeah if we if we obviously end up with the heavyweight it's because we've done the greatest thing. What is God? Yes. Yes.
Well, also what similar to what he said is just that we can't forgive ourselves. So we're not able to or like but we have we could forgive ourselves but some people are sins so great that they're not in the they don't have the power to forgive themselves or they think they don't have the power.
Good. Okay. Right. So what is God doing? What does God what is God want?
What is God doing? Tell us explicitly what God is doing. What is God doing?
What is God's action? What is God trying to do?
Yes.
So if the weights are the ones you put on yourselves, then God is trying to tell you to take them off yourself.
Okay? So what Bishop is saying is like God is trying to draw you to him. You understand?
Right? He's he he he's he's like a tractor beam, right? He's he's locked you on. He's trying to draw you to him. Okay.
That's what God is trying to do. Oh, and like what are you doing?
I imagine God's like a he's like watching a movie, right? He's sitting back and watching everybody on their own free will, navigating and exploring their different perspectives, um their different uh uh views of of of of things. as they kind of go towards him or to obey him. Is God watching you?
Yeah.
Why would politely say God is not watching you?
80:55Well, well, I think God just keep watching all of us. Yes. I think this kind of confession and uh if you think you're guilty, then you you you thought of God is there. For example, if you still steal something and you think it's okay, nobody watch it. But your guilty is still there.
So if your guilt is still there, it means that God is there. So maybe it is what I Yeah. what I thought.
Yes.
Again, is it more our agency? Are we watching God rather than him watching us?
Okay. Can you explain that?
Um it's more like obviously when when we decide within ourselves that we want salvation or we want to not sin do the right thing, we will look to God. It's not that he's sort of watching us.
Exactly. So, so the the key is this. God is always welcoming you. Okay. God is always going to draw you to him.
But because of the law of free will or free choice, it's entirely your choice what to do. You could welcome God, embrace God, and then move towards uh the light, which is what body is doing. But you can also turn away from God. um and do whatever you want. Okay?
And this is how the universe works. And this is the basic premise that you have to work with. Like everything that you do is entirely because you choose to do it even though you may not think it's your choice. Okay? This is the fundamental law of the universe.
It's all everything is free choice. So God doesn't is not going to watch you. God's going to welcome you. It's entirely your choice whether or not to move towards God for your actions. Okay?
For your desire and will. Does that make sense? Okay. And this is the premise that Peter is going to elaborate on um and expand on as they move across the heavens to to let God understand. And
82:55when you do, this means you choose to do it. And why would God give you free choice? And why is God doing this? Why is free choice, free will, the ultimate law of the universe? Why has God constructed the universe in such a way?
Yes. because that way you're willingly uh loving him or like following his his rules or stuff so that you're not forced to enter heaven or forced to uh obey God's commands.
Okay. Okay. Yes, that is true. But I'm saying like why does God give you free will? the very physics imagination of if if God is imagine God as energy and God energy tends to accumulate tends to be more of it.
So, so as as you have free will, all these agents having free will gravitate towards that source of energy. That source of energy becomes larger.
That's I don't
I think it makes sense.
Yes.
Is it kind of cuz God doesn't have his own free will, so he uses it through us?
Uh God doesn't have free will. That that that doesn't make any sense. He's God, right?
Like he he can't sin.
Yes. Uh I think it's exactly because God is omnipotent. He can do everything he wants but he chooses to uh give the freedom of choice to people to see.
But why?
Just to see what people react
as an experiment.
Well, he's experimenting on us. What? Like like mice in a in in a lab, right? Yes. Yes.
Uh I think he wants humans to reach him. So he would need a way for people to not reach him to make a contrast for people uh making their journey like closer and closer to him.
That sounds like like like a mice experiment, right? You have this like maze and you want the mouse to come to
84:55you, right? Is that what God is doing?
Yes.
I mean because God made man in his own image and he wanted men to have agency just like him.
But why does God want man have agency? Yes. Um because there's no good if there's no evil like like if if they are willing to do good there that's actually good.
Okay. So again God wants to create good so he has to create evil as well. So it all sounds like an experiment right? And you have you have to ask yourself would God actually do any of this? Yes.
Uh, this is a bit of a radical opinion, but what if God just didn't create us?
Then he's not God.
No, like what if we're independent from him?
Okay. Um, okay. But yes, yes, yes.
Um, he doesn't want blind obedience from humanity because if we are all forced to believe him, then he wouldn't be God anymore.
Okay. Uh, yes. Um, in the passage, uh, Dante writes, "Everything has an order." Right.
That's right.
So, you know, rocks fall downward, the fire burns upwards. So, it seems like those things don't really have free will, but as humans, we can stray from the path
and like
what whatever he writes. So, so as humans like we can we don't we don't automatically have that order.
So,
okay. No. Okay. So, we know this free will. Okay.
We know what makes us physically human is our free will. But I'm saying why do we have this? Why did God give us this? Yes. Because God is actually within us.
So, he wants to experience it.
God is within us. So, he wants to experience free will. But God already has free will. God is God. God can do whatever he wants.
86:55In the in the material world.
In the material world. Huh. Does God care? Yeah, keep on keeping.
Well, I would say rather than making an experiment, I would like to say the god will like play a role like much more like a judger because if people have the free will, they will do this stuff follow their true heart by their true meaning. So that means there will be no camouflage that can make someone feel uh confused. Then the gods can make the real judgment based on people's action and their true thoughts.
Okay. All right. So guys, again, this is a problem because you're overthinking this. It's not that hard.
That's what we do.
If you were a child, okay, how do you know your parents truly love you? What is that one signal that your parents truly love you unconditionally? What is it?
You can do whatever you want.
Exactly. Free will. You understand?
Yeah.
Well, h how about this kind of like the judge in law is called uh
not a judge. Okay.
It's kind of like
No, no, no. Okay. God is perfection. God is a creator, right? God and God to show he loves everything in the universe gives freedom to the universe.
Free will. Does that make sense? Okay. And again, just think about your parents. Just think about how if you're a parent, how you treat your child.
How do you know you truly your parents truly love you? Because your parents support you unconditionally. You understand? That's what God is. God loves you unconditionally.
God would never ever ask you to do anything. God will not ask you to do good. God will not ask you to do evil. Okay. God will not ask you to aspire to him.
Free will
88:59is the ultimate law of the universe because that is how God expresses his love to you. God exists to love you. Does that make sense? Uh well uh I don't I don't know but uh you know I'm also father and I think my son I can't just give them unconditional love because if I think conditional love is you don't take responsible for him. For example, if he's not my son, he can do everything what he want.
I don't care. But if he is my son, I have to tell him, right? You're my son. You have to learn. Right.
This is okay. I don't want to turn the debate. All we're trying to redesign comedy. We're trying to understand what Dante is saying here. Yes.
I kind of uh hold the same opinion where it's like, yeah, I agree with the idea that if someone loves you, they will support you unconditionally. And if you want to do something, they will support that. But I don't think it's giving it's the same thing as free will because the free will is saying if I don't want to go to sleep, my parents just won't let me go to just let me stay up all night. And if I don't want to eat my vegetables, my parents let me eat candy. Like that doesn't seem like like them showing that they love me.
So like I don't think that that free will necessarily is the same thing as you know being supportive no matter what.
Yeah. And and there but like you you understand there are rules to the universe. Okay. For example, we don't have the power to like blow up the entire universe. Do you understand?
There are limits to what we can do. God does set limits to us. Does that make sense? Okay. Uh yes.
So maybe I want to p maybe I want to pose a question at the very least. Um, it seems like Eve ate the apple from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And prior to that, Adam and Eve didn't have knowledge of this good and evil,
91:00which perhaps would negate a bit of this free free will without understanding the dichotomy. And so perhaps you could say either humans took for themselves this free will or that they were deceived and they were forced upon them by the serpent or the devil or whoever you want to say and we're forced free will. Does that seem to fit at all here?
Um okay. So yes,
but the the fact that the tree existed in the garden in the first place already shows that God has given free will from the beginning. So he has like you know a recommendation I I recommend you not to eat this fruit but if you want it's there you know like so from the very beginning there is free will. It's not like humans seek free will got the fruit and then got free will but it's like it's there.
Yeah. So, so I mean the we'll get to the garden, okay? But um there are like so many ways you can understand what happened, okay? But like what Donnie will say is that um exactly that which is if if God didn't want us to um didn't want us the opportunity to exercise our free will, he would not have put the tree there in the first place and he would not have said, "Hey, this that tree, don't touch it." Okay.
I mean, yeah. Uh did you have a comment? Yes.
Oh, wow. This is a bit of a meta narrative, but what what if God is perfection? God is everything good. God loves us. So no matter what God does to us, that's a form of his love.
If he gives us free will, that's his love. If he doesn't, that's his love. If he did, then we can only assume that he loves us.
Okay. All right. So um let me clarify something. Okay.
93:01This is beyond time and space. You understand? So we cannot use our logic. We cannot use our language to explain what's going on. When Dante is trying to use our logic, our language to explain to us what's going on.
Okay? So, this is not a literal explanation. Oh, God is a force that loves us. It's a metaphorical explanation that helps us understand our place in the universe. Does that make sense?
If you want to really go into literal then go study quantum mechanics right how the universe is entirely energy vibrations quantum fields but but the question then for Donnie is like what does this mean right if the universe is entirely energy how does energy flow work and what does this mean for us and what is trying to do is he's trying to explain to us what our place is metaphorically, poetically. Does that make sense? And the best way to understand God is that God is this force that loves us unconditionally and calls us back to him, which is what will enable us to be happy. But it's entirely our choice whether or not to go to him. He's trying to explain to us why we make certain choices that we do.
Okay? Do you understand? So this is poetry. This is a metaphor. This is not quantum mechanics.
Does it make sense, guys? All right. Any more questions before we move on?
Okay. So, I'm trying to establish the major themes that we'll be exploring throughout divine comedy. Okay. All right. Are we all clear?
All right. Let's let's move on to count two, please.
95:04start.
Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, you who are within your little bark, eager to listen, following behind my ship, that singing crosses to deep seas. Turn back to see your shores again. Do not attempt to sail the seas I sailed. You may by losing sight of me be left astray.
Okay. So now he's talking directly to us the reader, right? He's the poet. He's talking to us the the the reader. Keep on going.
The waves I take were never sailed before. Manurva breathes, Apollo pilots me, and the nine muses show to me the bear.
Okay. So again, he's invoking all possible inspirations to help him through this process. Okay. And no one's ever been on this journey before. And quite honestly, no one else will be will ever go on this journey again.
And keep on going.
You other few who turned your minds and time unto the bread of angels, which provides men here with life, but hungering for more, you may indeed commit your vessel to the deep salt sea, keeping your course within my wake, ahead of where waves smooth again. Those men of glory, those who crossed to Kus where they saw Jason turned into a plowman were less amazed than you will be amazed.
So again, he's referencing Greek mythology, Jason organized. Okay, going
the thirst that is innate and everlasting thirst for the godly realm. Bore us the way as swiftly as the heavens that you seek. Okay. So what he's saying is that our fundamental hunger, our fundamental need, our thirst is to return to God. Okay.
And he feels God is close to him. So he is moving really uh quickly towards him.
97:04Beatric gazed upward. I watched her, but in a span perhaps no longer than an arrow takes to strike, to fly, to leave the bow, I reached a place where I could see that something wonderful drew me, and she from whom my need could not be hidden. Turned to me, her gladness matched her loveliness. "Direct your mind to God in gratefulness," she said. "He has brought us to the first star."
Okay, so again, um heaven is not into a hierarchy. Okay, different uh planes. The first plane is the moon. Okay, so they are on the moon right now.
It seemed to me that we were covered by a brilliant solid, dense, and stainless cloud. Much like a diamond that the sun has struck into itself the everlasting pearl received us, just as water will accept a ray of light and yet remain intact. If I was body and on earth we cannot see how things material can share one's face. The case when body enters body, then should our longing be still more inflamed to see that essence in which we discern how God and human nature were made one? What we hold here by faith shall there be se not demonstrated but directly known even as the first truth that man believes?
I answered with the most devotion I can summon. I thank him who has brought me far from the mortal world. But now tell me, what are the dark marks on this planet's body that there below on earth have made men tell the tale of Cain?
Okay, so they're on the moon. Okay. And D has a question which is why are there dark spots on the moon? Actually, uh, Carol, could you um can we just like Google the moon?
Sure.
Yeah. So, you guys have looked up the
99:05moon, right?
There like dark spots on the moon and and like you're like, "What are they doing there?" Right? Like you guys see the moon, right? Explain. Does anyone know why there are dark spots on the moon?
Because there's craters from meteoroids. Yeah, that's the center explanation. Okay. Um, the center explanation is that there are some craters and these craters have certain material that is not reflective. They absorb the light.
Okay. All right. But D is asking this question like my first question is why are the dark spots on the moon? Okay. He said he's in heaven and he's asking like why are the dark spots on the moon?
Okay. So for him it's an journey, right? Okay. Uh, keep keep on going. Uh, Carol,
she smiled somewhat and then she said, "If the opinion mortals hold falls into error when the census key cannot unlock the truth, you should not be struck by the arrows of amazement once you recognize that reason even when supported by the senses has short wings." Okay. So here she's saying okay reason logic don't work in the universe. Okay. There is severe limitations to science to logic to reason. All right.
And so now we're forced to use our intuition and our imagination. Okay. If you truly believe in science, it's going to only carry you so far. Okay. Keep on going.
Um
sorry. I think imaginations and intuations and reason uh is all the uh on same level of uh presidential cognitive faculties. Why is imagination or intuation is higher than reason?
Okay, that's a good question. Okay. All right. So, let's figure this out. Reason and imagination are not the same thing.
Okay. Logic, intuition are not the same
101:06thing. Before I answer, does does anyone want to try? What's the difference? Have you guys thought about this? What's the difference between reason and imagination?
I don't know. I'm going to try but I I might do very well. But I think that like logic is more like about rational while imagination can be like very rational like um yeah like it can for example of different people have different
Yes. Uh yeah, I would say logic it's um the people in the past like what they experience and summarize and put into the theory or you can say logic is when it's what people think when they're in a normal state of mind and when they go crazy or when they just something happened to their brain and they're thinking something else they that's they can be more imaginative this way probably.
Yes. I think to an extent uh logic and reason they try to explain the material world but when we go into the realm of intuition and imagination we can go beyond the constraints of the material world and just like do whatever we want and kind of like it's like the human the human nature we want to experience things that are greater than this world that we live in so that's why sometimes we are drawn to poetry writing
okay Okay.
Intuitively, I think uh the difference between intuition and uh logic is that logic is uh you know it's like human being have a multiplex of uh uh ways of thinking or uh you know um in the universe. But logic is uh the conscious human effort involving language and other uh you know centralized method to you current universe. Whereas uh uh uh intuition is
103:07uh invoking the whole physical or mental capacity without even being conscious.
Okay. All right. So this is harder. Okay. But I I need you guys to understand the difference between reason and imagination.
Okay. And the central difference is this. When you reason, what you're really doing is dividing things into categories. Does that make sense? In order for you to reason, you have to categorize something.
For example, you're a girl, you're a boy, girl, boy. Okay? And then from that, once I have these categories, I can start to reason things out. Okay? But the but but the but the categorization is problematic because like by categorizing what I'm doing is I am reducing I'm subtracting I'm simplifying okay imagination is different because imagination is about synthesis it's about adding okay so you don't have this categorizing process you can take leaps okay you can build things on top of each other so that that's what is saying here.
If you try to categorize things, you're going to run into problems because categorization by itself is problematic. Does that make sense? Okay. You're try if you're trying to reason out why the moon has dark spots, right? You're like, the moon is a planet.
Uh the planet Well, I mean, do you do you understand what's going on? Okay. You're trying to put things into categories and as a result, it's going to confuse you. All right. Yes.
Is it also like if you use logic you can come up with many answers to one question but if you have intuition or imagination there is just one truth your gut feeling.
Yeah. Yeah. That's what B is going to say like intuition is probably your best guide.
Okay. Uh any any more? Yes.
Uh yeah maybe I think just like you know in ancient China people just don't believe in logic. They just believe in the for example like or we can call love or something. So you have to show love
105:07to your mother. You have to show love to your master. You cannot ask keep asking the question why I show love. What you can give me in return. But reason is different.
You have to get something in return like you know why I love you because I I I I need you. Right? Why I need you? Because you can give me something that I need. Right?
So I think maybe that is difference.
Yeah. So um so categorization is important because categorization allows you to better manipulate the material world. Okay, does that make sense guys? When you're able to categorize means you're also able to break things down to its uh uh basic elements and then manipulate them. Great technology.
Okay, does that make sense? But there's a limitation to this. The imagination is what carries you through to the um deep secrets of the universe. Okay. And that and that's what is saying here.
Okay. You are looking at the moon from a logical rational sonic perspective and that will not let you see the truth. Okay. The heart imagination will let you see the truth. Can can you can can you continue please?
Sure. But tell me what you think of it yourself. And I what seems to us diverse up here is caused I think by matter dense and rare.
Okay. Right. What's his explanation for this? It's a very simple explanation. Why are the dark smarts dark squads on the moon matters dense and rare?
What what does he mean by this
different density?
Can can you explain please?
Like like if you're just trying to figure this out logically, what's the most logical explanation for for why there are dark spots on the moon?
Uh there are different materials or craters or asteroids.
107:07No, that's not the most logical explanation. What's the most logical explanation? Dirt has different colors.
No guys, why are there dark spots on the moon? Why is it that some parts reflect and some parts don't reflect? Why?
Yeah.
Uh it would be cuz like it creates depth and so the more far away the darker like same as a cave would be.
Yeah. Right. Okay. So what we assume is that there are certain parts of the moon that are hollow. Does that make sense?
Like just from launch perspective like well there are parts of the moon that are hollow and that's a lot of light just passes through right and there are some parts of the moon that is pretty dense and so the light reflects back. I'm just saying from a logical perspective when you use categorization right and analysis you get to this conclusion. Okay. If something is hollow, it does not reflect light. If something is non hollow, light bounces back.
Okay, we're using logic here. And that's what Donna is saying. It doesn't make sense. Okay, keep keep on going.
And she, you certainly will see that your belief is deeply sunk in error if you listen carefully as I rebut it. What what is really interesting about Divine Comedy is they're in heaven and they're having a scientic debate. Okay? They're having an argument about the nature of science. You want
the eighth sphere offers many lights to you and you can tell that they in quality and size are stars with different visages. If rarity and density alone caused this, then all the stars would share one power distributed in lesser, greater or equal force. But different powers must be fruits of different formal principles. Were you correct? One only would be left, the
109:09rest destroyed and more.
Okay. Okay. Right. So what she's saying here is okay, we are looking at the heavens. The different stars have different lighting.
Okay. And she's saying like if we can just reduce everything to logic, then this logic controls the universe and therefore the entire stars are lit by this logic. Okay. Um but she's going to tell us that can't be true. Okay.
There's another force that's at work. Keep on going. and more were rarity the cost of the dim spots you question. Then in part this planet would lack matter through and through. Or else as in a body lean and fat can alternate so would this planet alternate the pages in its volume.
Okay. So what you're saying is this. Okay. If it is true that density is what determines light, then what you're saying is there are parts of the moon that are hollow or they have a deep cavity. Okay, does that make sense, guys?
Okay, either possibility either hollow or there's a deep cavity inside the moon. So, the light just goes into it. Okay, only one of these two possibilities. And now what she's going to do too is she's going to refute both of these arguments. Am I going
and more?
I hear and more were rarity the cause of the dead. Sorry.
Anyway, I'll just repeat it. And more of a rarity the cause of the dense thoughts
111:09of question that in part this planet would lack matter through and through or else as in a body lean and fat can alternate. So would this planet alternate the pages in it? to validate the first case in the sun's eclipse. The light would have to show through just as when it crosses matter that is slender. This is not so.
Therefore, we must consider the latter case. If I had null that too, then your opinion surely is confused.
Okay. So, she's saying it is not possible for the moon to be hollow at any point. Why? It's not possible for the moon to be hollow at any point. Why?
Because
there's a
Yes. So, anyone
There's an eclipse.
The eclipse, right? You guys,
right? So, it's not possible for the moon to be a hole at any point. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a eclipse. Okay. If rarity does not run through and through the moon, then there must be a limit where thickness does not allow the light to pass from there.
The rays of sun would be thrown back. Just as from glass that hides lead at its back, a ray of colored light returns reflected. Now, you will say that where a ray has been reflected from a section farther back, that ray will show itself to be more dim.
Okay. So, so wait, that's that's the logical argument, right? Well, maybe the moon is not is not completely hollow, but there are parts that are so deep the light just is trapped. Okay, keep on going.
Yeah, an experiment for you to try it could free you from your caval and the source of your arts course springs from experiment.
Okay, what's she saying here? She's saying like, "If you don't believe me and I'm
113:09Beatrice, I am a representative of God. You don't believe me, what should you do?" Do
it for yourself, man. You understand? You don't have to believe me. I am not forcing you to believe anything. You have the power to know the truth for yourself.
Okay? Do an experiment. one.
Taking three mirrors, place a pair of them at equal distance from you. Set the third midway between those two, but farther back. Then, turning toward them at your back, have placed a light that kindles those three mirrors and returns to you reflected by them all. Although the image in the farthest glass will be of lesser size, there you will see that it must match the brightness of the rest.
Okay? So, you guys understand experiment. Okay? What I'm doing is I am putting mirrors in front of me, okay? Maybe 10 ft away in front of me and I'm putting like a mirror 10,000 km away and I'm shining a a light at both.
Okay. Would the brightness differ between these two mirrors? Yes or no? No. It's the same brightness.
Okay. that 10,000 km mirror might be like you can't actually see it, but if you actually go there, it would just be as bright. Okay? And this experiment you you can actually do at home. You don't have to believe me.
You can just go home and try this experiment. No matter how far it is from you, it will still be as bright. Okay? Does that make sense? Right?
So, it's not possible for the cavity theory to be true as well. So through logic for reason she's able to refute your logic and reason as well. Okay. So this is a science debate.
115:10Now just as the sub matter of the snow beneath the blows of the warm rays is stripped of both its former color and its cold. So is your mind left bare of error. I would offer now to you a new form light so living that it trembles in your sight.
Why is Beatatrice wasting everyone's time? Why is she doing this? Why is tell Dante D you're a and here's the truth? Why is she engaging in this dialogue, this Socratic dialogue? What's the point of this?
Yes. So uh I'm thinking that Dante hasn't fully convinced himself that he is in heaven yet. So his imagination is not solidified there. So if he unconvinces himself that he's in heaven, then he will just fall away and he will wake up and he'll be back on earth. So Beatus is trying to prevent that by convincing him and by solidifying his imagination in heaven.
Do you think this conversation actually took place? Okay. So why is conversation happening?
I think this is Dant Dante the poet actually structuring it in such a way to demonstrate the kind and the difference between what what we mentioned earlier knowledge and imagination.
Okay.
Yes.
I think it's just for the reader to so the reader can like reason it out through like Dante Dante's experience in heaven. So like as a reader we use logic to understand something.
Okay. But I'm saying like why go through this very long process? Why don't you just tell us what's going on?
Yes.
Well, I think it's just kind of the uh you can call it emotional things or you
117:10know the point they don't just always think logically. they sometimes think just initiatively that means we can call original thinking it's like uh El Musk said original thinking is not the the one but zero so did let me ask you this question it's a really weird question okay and we'll end the first session with this question okay the question is this Dante wrote this in 1321 did he could he possibly imagine that in the year 2026 six that we would be in Beijing on this day. It's a multicultural, multilingual group of group and that we would be discussing his divine comedy trying to figure out his intention. Could he imagine this in the year 1321? What do you think?
It's pretty amazing, right? like like he wrote this in the in the year 1321. He didn't even know where China was that then never experienced the world. Could he have imagined that in the year 2026 that we would be together trying to figure out his intention? Could he have can you imagine that?
Who says yes? Someone say yes. Just for what?
Yeah. Yes. I think it's a yes.
Why?
I think yes because just like Shakespeare he says that uh maybe uh the things that we can be forgotten but worse will be remembered forever. So every writer want their own work can become masterpiece including tenting I suppose. Yeah.
Yes.
I guess if what he writes is close to the truth and close to what is true it will stand withstand the test of time right. Okay. So, just pretend to be either 50 years from now, 1,000 years from now, 2,000 years from now.
119:10Yeah. Okay. Good. Right. Um, anyone else like like could he have known that one day we'd be reading this and discussing this in Beijing in 2026?
I don't know. Like maybe in
Sorry. I don't know. Maybe when um he was on this journey, he might have like seen this. So like that's why he after 20 years he was like very adamant that I'm going to be documenting this conversation and leaving this work and for example in Bernac so that watching.
Do you think he actually had this conversation in heaven? Do you think any of this is actually true?
Uh yes.
I think uh I think to analyze this you need to strip the situation of these trappings. So you said we're here in Beijing and we're here this group of people specifically talking about it. Of course he could not have seen these trappings. These are material trappings. But uh if we delve down into the archetype of what we're doing which is discussing his work which is deriving knowledge deriving nourishment from it then this archetype is a constant across all ages and he could absolutely have foreseen that this was going to happen.
Okay that's right. So 500 years from now, is it possible that another group of people will be watching this video and analyzing what we're discussing? Is that possible?
Yeah.
What would make it possible? Why would they be doing this?
Oh, they'll be reading Dante. They'll be reading Dante. I'm not sure if they'll be watching the video. They'll be reading. But how can you be sure that we were in contract?
Uh yes. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.
Um well maybe because like Dante knew that Facebook would
121:12change the course of history or we would think in this room that
he thought he know that.
Well not for certain.
Oh actually he did know that.
Really?
Yes he did. Okay. He did know that when he wrote this. What happened to him after he finished the vine comedy? Did you guys know?
He
died.
He died. Right after he finished my com. He died.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
He died.
Yes.
Well, I think u these topics are eternal and that's what make us human. So even after maybe 5,000 years or somebody will still um learn from these topics and try to um learn from people that's um taugh taught these topics before.
Okay. Uh yes.
Yeah. I was going to I was going to expand upon that um and just say that people are going to forever have curiosity and uh seek questions about God and they will never be answered until we find out.
Yeah. Okay. So, um I would just say that if you just look into your heart, you know what is eternal, what is true. Okay? And you know it that is eternal and what is true then you know that this will both extend into the future as well as extend back in the past.
Okay. And this is something that you can't actually logically explain something that is just done through faith and intuition. Okay. All right. So we'll end the morning session on this note and then we'll come back at 1:00.
All right. Okay. All right. Thanks. Okay.
Uh, welcome back to the live stream. Um, so, uh, for those of you watching online, please note that every
123:13day we start class promptly at 10:00. Then we'll break at 12 for lunch. Uh, and then we come back at 1:00 and we continue until 3:00. Okay? Okay.
So, the live stream is from 10:00 a.m. until 300 p.m. But please note there's an hour break in between um just so that we can rest and get some food to uh eat. Okay. So, um again for the first day we're establishing themes and ideas that structure the divine harmony.
And then um after we do that then I'm I want to expand and give you questions and exercises that help you promote your intuition your your imagination because that's what's going to allow you to fully understand the divine comedy. Something that's really important for you guys to keep in mind is that right now uh I'm offering you my interpretation. Okay. Another caveat that's very important is that we are reading this in English. This is one of dozens of translations.
So there's going to be problems in interpretation because we because we don't speak Italian. So if you really want to understand divine comedy, if you really want to experience sting for yourself, you have to read aloud divine comedy in Italian as it was designed. Okay? And like it was it's a and like the thing that is um the thing I believe about divine harmony is that it's an act of divine inspiration meaning that Dante wrote this um by channeling God and the universe and only by reading aloud the Italian the Tuskkin can you experience this for yourself. Okay?
because when you do so, you will be channeling Dante himself. So, um I hope that this class will only
125:16be the beginning of a jour lifelong journey. Okay, I think it'll be a lifelong journey into truly experiencing uh Dante. Um another thing that I do in this class which may be a bit weird is I treat the divine comedy as perfection. meaning that every word, every idea is perfect. And if we don't understand it, it's because of the limitations of our own intuition and imagination.
Okay? Does that make sense? Okay. So, if we're a bit confused, it's not his fault, it's our fault. Um, and uh I work under this assumption.
All right. Okay. So, let's continue from uh let's continue. Uh can can you read uh Carol and thanks so much for reading, by the way. Thank you.
Now, just as the submatter of the snow beneath the blows of the warm rays is stripped of both its former color and its cold, so is your mind left bare of error. I would offer now to you a new form, light so living that it trembles in your sight.
Okay, so the idea here is if you truly want to understand something, you need to engage in debate, right? Because this is the year 1321 and the idea is just obey the Catholic Church. Just obey your priests and you'll understand. And what Bonn is saying? No, you have to engage in open debate, sacratic debate if you truly want to understand.
So as a teacher, you have to allow your students to make errors. Okay. All right. Keep on going. Within the heaven of the godly peace revolves a body in whose power lies the being of all things that it unfolds.
Okay. All right. So this is really interesting and I I want to think about this. So um the metaphor that's being used is body
127:16right the universe is a body. Okay. So, as an exercise, I want to think about what other metaphors we could use to describe the universe. Right? The metaphor that's being used here is body, but I want to explore other possibilities.
What are some other possibilities for how to describe the universe? Anyone? Yes.
A big ball. A big ball. Okay. A big ball. All right.
That's interesting. What else? Yes. God. God itself.
Okay. That's a possibility. What else?
In Chinese myth theology, they describe it as a turtle that's standing on top of an elephant that's standing on top of something else.
I don't know how I don't know how how to describe that. Okay. turtle on top of an elephant. So, is it fair to say that there are multiple dimensions and they're all interlocking? Okay, so maybe um interlocking dimensions.
Okay, this is new to me. You guys are far more creative than I am. Yes. What else?
Press on the mic.
Energy and vibration.
Okay. Uh energy. Sure. What else? Yes.
Uh, the soul. H.
The soul.
The soul. The soul. Okay. The soul. Okay.
What else?
Uh, uh, how have a cave?
A cave. Okay. That's interesting. Okay. Again, you guys are far more creative than I am.
I would not never come up with these on my own. Anyone else?
Okay. How about garden? Okay. about
129:17a factory.
Um, there's a TV show that describes the universe as a Jeremy Barmy. So, there's an I and then so like the word Jeremy Barmy because the word Jeremy and the J the J and the Y connect. So the idea is that the universe is a loop that goes in a Jeremy bar, but then there's a I accidentally end up on that I you're stuck forever.
This is way too complicated for for um Okay. All right. Okay. This is like beyond my intention. Okay.
All right. My the point I'm trying to make is that depending on the metaphor, you will perceive the universe in a different way. Okay. So if you just say the energy is the universe is energy, it's basically complete chaos, right? chaos and renness.
Um to say the soul, it's like a fractal, right? Basically, your soul is a universe and then it mirrors the entire universe. Okay. Uh a cave is basically just a simulation. Is that is that fair to say?
A cave would be a simulation. It's not real. Okay. Um, a uh God would be um the mind of God. Okay.
We're living in a dream basically. And a ball I I would not know how to describe a ball, but a ball I think would be what? Why would you say it's a ball?
I should clarify. I mean like a crystal ball, like a little simulacum, and inside is everything. And you can shake it up and it'll change a little.
So So it's still a simulation.
No. No, not a sim simulation. It's a ball which contains energy which is more like a crucable a reactor.
Yeah, I'm so confused.
Okay. Um Okay. So, a garden is something
131:18like God um as the gardener, right? Does that make sense? We're all just a flower in the garden. God's always taking care of us, right? Nurturing us, cultivating us.
A factory is like a machine where there are certain laws to the universe and we're governed by these laws. Okay. So the B that even body is interesting because it is distinct from all other of these metaphors. Why would what does a body signify? Right?
You have a body, you have a brain, you have arms. Why would that be a good metaphor for the universe?
Uh yes.
Uh like it would mean that we are like really part of the universe and that we can also reflect like upon ourself compared to the universe like what it is.
Yes. Thank you.
Directly interact with it.
Yes. Thank you. Yes.
Uh just that the body is a metaphor for the universe as in as a human the body is all that there is.
Everything is contained within.
Okay. Yes. Um, in a body there are organs and they all have a purpose and they all work together. So everything is connected. So there's two things.
One is everything is connected. Two is everything has a role.
Good. Yes.
A body can like receive ideas and then enact them.
The brain, right?
Yeah. Basically.
And so what what's a brain?
Ideas or the mind.
Okay. Anyone else? Yes. At the back.
Um maybe the body of Christ or something. Each has a role or like the head will be leadership and then the other parts hands and feet are like the actions.
Yes.
A body can die.
Yeah. A body can die. Yeah. Okay. Um Yeah.
All right. Yes.
Maybe the cells cuz uh body has cells, right? Many many stars. Yes. Okay.
133:20Stars is like
cells. I guess it's interesting that if if humans are the image of God and then he's taking this metaphor as the universe and he's creating a metaphor as the image of of humans as well.
Right. Yes. Right. So the universe is a human as well. Yes.
Anyone else? Okay. So some key ideas that we want to remember um that we can construe from body from the using body as a metaphor for the universe is first of all interconnectedness right everything is interconnected together um the role meaning every part of the body is important right if you lose a finger if you lose a cell it's going to cause problems for you the last of is and this is really important is the idea of intentionality intentionality. A body cannot be random, right? Energy can be random.
Um, but a body there has to be some intentionality, a design to it. The the body has a purpose. It has direction, right? It's not just random chaos. So, that's the idea uh inherent in the body metaphor.
Okay. All right. Let's continue.
That follows.
Yeah,
I think
the sphere that follows where so much is shown to varied essences bestows that being to stars distinct and yet contained in it. The other spheres in ways diverse direct the diverse powers they possess, so that these forces can bear fruit, attain their aims. So these organs of the universe proceed as you now see from stage to stage receiving from above and acting downward.
Okay. So all these different spheres that we see in the heavens, they're like organs in a body, right? And what's
135:20really important to understand is that each organ has its own distinct role and purpose. When you lose an organ, that's a problem. Okay? So there's an intentionality uh and each spear has a certain purpose and it's all to a design. Okay, keep on going.
And and by the way, we'll be visiting these spears one by one. Okay, keep on going.
Um so do so do these organs of the universe proceed as you now see from stage to stage receiving from above and acting downward. Now do attend to how I pass by way of reason to the truth you want that then you may learn how to cross the ford alone.
To cross the ford alone means to learn so that you can be fully independent. Right? You are in this class in order to be able to read divine comedy by yourself one day. Right? Keep on going.
The force and motion of the holy spheres must be inspired by the blessed movers. Just as the smith imparts the hammer's art. And so from the deep mind that makes it wheel, the spear at many lights adore and receives that stamp of which it then becomes the seal.
So God is the brain and all the spears are different organs. Okay, keep on going. And as the soul within your dust is shared by different organs, each most suited to a different potency, so does that mind unfold and multiply its bounty through the varied heavens, though that intellect itself revolves upon its unity.
Okay? with the dear body that it quickens and with which as life in you it too is bound. Each different powers forms a different compound because of the glad
137:20nature of its source. The power mingled with a sphere shines forth as gladness through the living pupil shine. From this and not from matter rare or dense derived the differences from light to light. This is the forming principle producing conforming with its worth the dark the bright.
Okay. All right. So do you guys understand the point here? I know that in school you study evolution, you study physics and you believe that the universe is emergent meaning there are some basic principles and then from this will emerge other things. Okay.
And what Dante is saying is that's just a wrong way to understand the universe. There is intentionality. There is interconnectedness. And the reason why the moon shines differently from other spheres is that God manifests differently in different places. Okay?
And it's all to a certain design and intention. And Peter says, "You must understand this idea if we are to move on." Okay. So before we move on, are there any questions?
Yes.
How could like like why why could our understanding of the world as having evolved from basic principles not not co Is there any answer to this? Does anyone want to respond to this idea? Why why is this in you're asking like why is this in contradiction? Right. Okay.
Well, I mean like there's a debate between evolution and intelligent design, right?
139:22where the people who believe in evolution said it is not because of God, it's not because of intention, it's because of survival the fittest, because of Darwinism. Right? And so what is the the the the question?
Can you try to hide the use the handheld? Maybe you have to turn it on. So
yeah. So like why could not go not have designed Darwinism? God designed Darwinism and allow Darwinism to take his course because that's what God wants.
Okay. So um this is a different conception of God. Okay. So there are you can say that God is an architect who designed the rules of the universe and no longer cares. Does that make sense?
because he's already designed the game and we just play the game and he doesn't really care what happens. What Dante is saying is like no, God is still with us and God um shows his approval by shining his light in us. Does that make sense? All right. Okay.
Do do you understand this idea? It's the difference between a game developer and a game game master who plays his own game.
Uh it's it's it's a rough metaphor. Yes. But but yeah, the idea is that um in evolution, what they're saying is that the universe is independent of God. Does it make sense?
Yeah.
Okay. God doesn't interfere in the universe. What Peter is saying to Dante is like, "No, God is always present. We know because the spears shine differently. Okay.
All right. Any more questions before we move on? It's really important you guys
141:25make sure you understand otherwise you you get more and more confused as we go along.
Yes.
Uh so you you you mean that God is just like uh you know the sun or just like a mural. So the God just shine upon all of us and we can reflect God back.
Right? So the metaphor that Peters use is the body, right? So God is the brain. Okay. So we're always interfacing with with God.
All right. Okay. All right. Let's continue to cattle three, please. That sun which first had warmed my breast with love had now revealed to me confuting proving the gentle face of truth its loveliness and I
sorry what is the sun Apollo but what else? God and what else?
Inspiration.
Okay. God Apollo and what else? Who's talking who who who's he talking to?
Beatatric.
Beatatrice. Right. So, how can we reconcile this? This is a paradox. Who's who who's he talking to?
God or Polo or Beatatrice? This is a paradox. So, how can we reconcile this? Yeah. So, I'm going to borrow from William I'm going to borrow from William Blake here.
So uh William Blake has his god and he also has the gods emanations. You can consider emanations as representatives of the god. So beatress here is on behalf of Apollo and on behalf of god uh in a more concrete form in order to show Dante.
Exactly. Okay. Does that make sense to you guys? Okay. Well ultimately the secret is that God is love.
Okay. And love can take different manifestations. We can use different ways to describe this love. It can manifest itself as Apollo. It can manifest itself as Beatatric.
But it's really the same
143:26force. Okay. All right. Okay. Let's keep on going.
And I in order to declare myself corrected and convinced lifted my head as high as my confessional required. But a new vision showed itself to me. The grip in which it held me was so fast that I did not remember to confess. Just as returning through transparent clean glass or through waters calm and crystalline so shallow that they scarcely can reflect the mirrored image of our faces meets our pupils with no greater force than that a pearl has when displayed on a white forehead. So faint the many faces I saw keen to speak.
Thus my mistake was contrary to that which led the man to love the fountain. As soon as I had noticed them, thinking that what I saw were merely mirroring, I turned around to see who they might be, and I saw nothing. And I let my sight turn back to meet the light of my dear guide, who, as she smiled, glowed in her holy eyes. "There's no need to wonder if I smile," she said, "because you reason like a child. Your steps do not yet rest upon the truth.
Your mind misguides you into emptiness. What you are seeing are true substances placed here because their vows were not fulfilled.
Okay. So Dante is um in the spears and he sees people and he's completely confused by this because why why is this happening right? Why is everyone not with God? Why are people separated from God? Okay.
And Beatric is saying um it's trying to explain to him. Keep on going. You're okay. Thus speak and listen. Trust what they will say.
The truth or
145:27light in which they find their peace will not allow their steps to turn astray. Then I turned to the shade that seemed most anxious to speak. And I began as would a man bewildered by desire to intent. Oh spirit born to goodness, you who feel beneath the rays of the eternal life, that sweetness which cannot be known unless it is experienced. It would be gracious of you to let me know your name and fate.
At this unhesitant with smiling eyes, our charity will never lock its gates against just will. Our love is like the love that would have all its court be like itself. Within the world, I was a nun, a virgin. And if your mind attends and recollects, my greater beauty here will not conceal me. And you will recognize me as Picarda, who placed here with the other blessed ones, and blessed within the slowest of the spheres.
Our sentiments which only serve the flame that is the pleasure of the Holy Ghost delight in their conforming to his order and we are to be found within a sphere this low because we have neglected vows so that in some respect we were deficient.
Okay. So this is really interesting. Okay. So there's a hierarchy to the heavens and at the very bottom are those who are inconstant meaning those who have failed to fulfill their vows. Okay.
So keep on going. And I to her within your wonderful semblance there's something divine that glows transforming the appearance you once showed. Therefore, my recognizing you as low, but what you now have told me is of help. I can identify you much more clearly.
Okay. So, Picard is actually someone that Dante, the historical figure, knew
147:28in real life. Okay. So, throughout the divine comedy, there are mythical mythical figures, but they're also people who were part of Dante's life. Now some background back background about Dante is that he was essentially an aristocrat in Florence who participated in uh politics. There was a there was many struggles for power in Florence and this was true for throughout Italy.
Okay. And this power struggle is something that we will discuss as we as we move along. Okay. But just remember there's a power to struggle for Carter is someone that Donnie knew in real life. Keep on going.
But tell me, though you're happy here, do you desire a higher place in order to see more and to be still more close to him? Together with her fellow shade, she smiled at first. Then she replied to me with such gladness, like one who burns with love's first flame. Brother, the power of love appeases our will. So we only long for what we have.
We do not thirst for greater blessedness. Should we desire a higher sphere than ours, then our desires would be discordant with the will of him who has assigned us here. But you'll see no such discord in these spheres. To live in love is here necessity if you think on love's nature carefully. The essence of this blessed life consists in keeping to the boundaries of God's will through which our wills become one single will.
So that as we are ranged from step to step throughout this kingdom, all this kingdom wills that which will please the king whose will is rule and in his will there is our peace that sea to which all beings move. The beings he creates or nature makes such is his will.
Okay. So Dante asked her question. The question is clearly there's a hierarchy in heaven and you are in the outer
149:29sphere right you're the core is God so do you desire as a person to move closer to God basically graduate right to move from the outer sphere to the inner sphere what is your response
why not we are content here
yeah but Yes.
Uh she is content because she has to be absolutely obedient to God and God says that you she has to be content here. So she has to be content. If she is not content then she would not even be worthy of this first sphere.
Okay. Yeah. Does that make sense guys? Okay. That's exactly what she says.
But what's a paradox here? What's a paradox here? Yeah. Her her free will couldn't get her higher,
right? But she but she doesn't want to go higher. Same thing, though, right?
Yeah. So, man, God's God's making the decision for her, though,
right? That's right. And she accepts that that decision. But that's a paradox. Why?
Uh, it would place God as a judge. And we said that he wasn't putting persons into places,
right? No, I but that's my interpretation. I'm saying like like within the structure there's a paradox. What's a paradox? There's a logical contradiction here.
She says, "God has willed me to be here and it is my role, my duty to obey his will. Therefore, I'm happy where I am." But what's the problem with this with with this logic? Yes.
Um, so I'm thinking say this is the first sphere and there's the second
151:30sphere and eventually someone will have to advance from the first sphere to the second sphere, right? And the second sphere is supposed to be better than the first sphere. So you'll be happier in the second sphere than you were in the first sphere. However, according to this logic, one can never advance. One could never change because if you want to advance to the second second sphere, then you are not even worthy of the first sphere.
If you don't want to advance to the second sphere and God forced you to advance to the second sphere anyways, then you will be less happy in the second sphere than you were in the first sphere, which is not fitting with the second sphere.
Yeah, it makes absolutely no sense. Do you understand the logic here, right? If if if it if it was just a case where you just obey God's will and then everyone's in heaven, there would be no hierarchy in heaven. Why is there a hierarchy? Does that make sense?
Okay. So, why is she stuck where she is? Why is she in the lower sphere? You mean cuz she's contented.
Yeah. Because she's happy where she is, right? She wants to be there. That's a problem. Okay.
All right. All right. Do you guys understand this? All right. Okay.
Let's let's keep on reading. Carol,
then it was clear to me how every place in heaven is in paradise, though grace does not reign equally from the high good. But just as when our hunger has been sated with one food, one food, we still long to taste the other. While thankful for the first, we crave the latter. So was I in my words and my gestures asking to learn from her what was the web of which her shuttle had not reached the end. A perfect life she said and her high merit and heaven up above a woman whose rule governs those who in your world would wear none's dress and veil.
So that until their death they wake and sleep with that spouse who accepts all vows that love conforms unto
153:32his pleasure. Still young I fled the world to follow her and in her orders habit I enclosed myself and promised my life to her rule. Then men more used to malice than to good took me violently from my sweet cloister. God knows what after that my life became. This other radiance that shows itself to you at my right hand, a brightness kindled by all the light that fills our heaven.
She has understood what I have said. She was a sister and from her head too by force the shadow of the sacred veil was taken. But though she had been turned back to the world against her will, against all honest practice, the veil upon her heart was never loosed. This is the splendor of the great Costanza who from the Suabians second gust and gendered the one who was their first, their third and final power.
Okay, so explain what's going on. Okay, so Donna is asking her um why are you here? And she says, "Well, what happened was that um my brother is this very powerful duke and I fell in love with God and I wanted to serve God. So I followed um a woman into the nun." Okay. I became a nun, right?
I made my vows to God. My brother, the Duke, needed me as a pawn for his power fix, right? He wanted to marry me off to to someone else to form an alliance. So he sent his soldiers to force me back to him and then he married me off. But even though I was married, even though I gave children, I never abandoned my love for God.
In my heart, I maintain loyalty to God. So
155:32even though my body uh no longer was chased, my heart was chased. Okay? And it's not just me, but my friend here, same situation where she was also a nun and she was also stolen to be married off by her brother. Okay. And so it seems as though they've done nothing wrong, yet at the same time they are in the lower sphere.
Okay? Which basically tells us God doesn't really approve of their actions. This is a paradox, right? They did everything right. They did nothing wrong.
They were forced to get married. What did they do wrong? They didn't
nothing, right?
They didn't like have ambition. They didn't try to exercise their free will.
Wait, wait, wait. How could they exercise their free free will?
By refusing.
Yeah, but there are soldiers with swords dragging her away. What could she have done? She could have tried to escape or killed herself. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Yeah.
Uh, she she couldn't she couldn't off herself because uh in Catholicism that's that's a sin.
Exactly. Thank you. Yes. Yes. Okay.
This is a really important constraint. Okay. So, in the Catholic religion at this time, the worst sin in the world is suicide. You understand? If you kill someone, that's not as bad as if you kill yourself.
So, suicide is the worst sin. Okay. And why they made this a sin is it was very common for women who are who are raped to kill themselves. Why?
Yeah. But but why kill yourself?
157:38No one will want to marry them.
Right. But they were Christians. You understand? They were Christians. So they thought if I kill myself I just go with Jesus.
Oh right.
And that's why the church has said no you can't kill yourself anymore. Okay. In fact Augustine wrote an entire essay on this saying like the worst sin is suicide. Much more much worse than rape because look at the end of the day they're raping your body. They can't touch your soul right so what matters is your soul.
Your body doesn't matter. Your body belongs to this earth which is nothing but your soul belongs to God which is everything. Okay? So don't worry if you get raped. Don't worry if you get married.
It doesn't matter. What matters is your faith. And what so why is she in the lower sphere? She did everything right. What's what's wrong with this?
Yeah. Uh maybe God think that the body or the sword is what I gave to you. But if you just uh deny it, it means that you deny me. So maybe you need to be tortured. Okay, let's let's elaborate on on your idea here.
Okay, I think you can't kill yourself, right? So, what do you do?
So, you you should run away,
but they'll just catch you,
right? Cuz your brother fight back like a Disney princess. Like, you fight back.
You fight back.
Yes.
Actually, I was going to say that. What about if she used the free will and she does fight back and dies honorably and then it's not really suicide?
It's still suicide.
But is Dante saying that in this case suicide is okay? Like is he going against
Dant would never say suicide is okay?
Okay.
Yeah. Well, but but but again like like what's going on here?
Is he is he trying to kind of criticize the the the Christian churches?
No. Okay. No, he does he. Yeah.
Could he be bringing randomness and luck
159:39into this at all? She had a bad luck.
Does Does Tony believe in in randomness and luck?
Okay. Yes.
So, uh this lowest sphere is for people who have broken their promises. When you enter a nony, you make a vow to be chance to be a virgin forever. And no matter how you did it, no matter who forced you to do this, you still broke that promise in the eyes of God. And so God will assign you where you need to go.
I I understand this. But this morning we just said that God was all forgiving, all loving and non-judgmental. This is clearly judgmental. Clearly, she does nothing wrong. Why is she here?
What's going on here, guys? Yeah. And
forgive herself. So she confined herself to that sphere.
Yeah. Well, that that is true. She she she did say that I belong here and I'm happy here, right? But the question is like how did she end up here? That's a question, right?
What did she do wrong? She clearly did something wrong. What was it? Okay. So, I'm going to write down a phrase.
Okay. And you guys have all heard this phrase before, but you tell me what it means. Where there is a will,
there is a way.
There is a way. What does it mean?
Like how Rapunzel was stuck in the tower. She escaped. So if she had a will, if she had a will to escape, she could have escaped. And even if she died, she would have been she would have died honorably in trying to exercise her free will.
Okay. Anyone else?
I I don't understand how this works. Where there's a will, there is a way.
161:39What does this mean? Okay. Yeah. You really want to escape and you escape. But but how does that work?
Yeah. Well, you like manifest a way or like you imagine a way in your mind out of it and then some in some way the universe will give you a way to get there.
Exactly. Okay. Could could you repeat that? That's exactly This is exactly it. Okay.
Okay. Make sure everyone understands this idea. Say it again. Well, the if you like can imagine the world that you want, then you the the universe will be able to showcase a way for you and then you will be able to walk it. Hey, does that make sense to you guys?
Okay, let let me explain the process. First of all is the will you really really want it. Okay, when that happens is you don't know how an idea will come into your mind. You will imagine a way and then what will happen is that this manifestation, this imagination, the universe will respond and shape reality in a way that allows you to manifest your will. Does that make sense guys?
Okay. So, the problem is that she did not want it enough. You understand? It isn't that she broke a will. It's just she was not faithful enough.
If you really wanted to escape, then an idea would have come into your mind to show you the way and then you just go do it and the universe bends reality in a way that allows you to escape. Okay? But the key is the will, right? And what this is saying is like you can do everything you anything you want. The universe will grant it to you.
The question is do you really really want it
163:41or not? And clearly she did not. And how do we know she does she wanted?
She's here. She
Oh yeah, sure. She's she's here. What else?
It happened to her anyways. No, but what's her problem right now? She doesn't want to go anywhere else. Do you understand? That's the problem.
It's not that she's here. It's like she doesn't want to go beyond this point. She's like, I'm perfectly happy here, man. I've been to heaven. I'm awesome.
You know, like I went to Yale. I'm the worst student at Yale, but I'm happy being the worst student at Yale. Like that. That's like literally what she's saying. Okay.
Right. All right. Any more questions you guys? Do you guys This is a really important idea if you want to understand Dante. Okay.
You are always in communication with the universe, right? It's only a question of like how focused, how intentional, how much will do you have in achieving what you want. All right. So if you don't get Yeah. I I just want to add that like um that's what like free will is about like free will is not just being able to do what to what you want but like being able to will what you want.
Exactly.
It's all it's more about the will than like the the action.
Yeah. That's exactly correct. Yes. Yes.
Have like me chase will to power idea or is it different?
Okay. Let's just say for whatever reason you want to become king, right? And what's the question?
Is Dante's idea about will kind of the same as Niete's idea about will to power like
Yes. Yes. It's very similar. Yes. is it
165:43it reminds me of a concept we learned in psychology where it's called self-efficacy as brought up by bandor. The idea is that um like the number one reason why you're able to accomplish something is you believing in yourself that you can accomplish that thing.
Exactly. Right. And it's the word we we it's it's like we the popular phrase is manifestation. You understand? You manifest it.
Okay. meaning you imagine it, but you're able to imagine it because you will it into being, right? Which which is Nichi's point. Okay? And I mean, like it's really important to understand that um what they're all saying is that there's really no good and evil in the universe.
There's just will. Okay? And so it's entirely your choice how to live it. And and I know this sounds a bit weird, but um we'll try to unpack it as we go along. Okay.
This this idea here. Okay. Uh you also had had a had a comment or a question.
Yeah. I just wanted to clarify. Did she like not want to escape bad enough or did she not want to ascend to the next sphere bad enough?
Okay. All right. So, so, so, so let's go deeper into this. Okay. You're Picarda.
Okay. You're in a convent. You're happy in the convent. Soldiers come to you. Okay.
Let let's try to imagine her state of mind. What what is she thinking? What what are all the emotions going through her mind? What what is she thinking right now? She's in the convent.
There's like an army like outside the convent demanding that she go with them, right? And they're they're like mean. They have like swords. They they're they're really mean people. And like quite honestly, they could come and kill everyone in the convent, right?
What is she thinking right now? What's her thought process? like she's um really in despair because obviously as like one woman she um cannot face off this group of people.
Fear and despair, right?
167:43Yeah. And then maybe like she will pray to God because like hopefully God will save her but maybe it wasn't like strong enough.
And and and what will God Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. And what will God say to this? You're you're you're afraid.
You're in a spirit. You pray to God, please save me. Please save me. Please save me. So what's wrong with that?
Yeah.
Well, um I just wanted to say that God just needs your trust. So if you trust God and you love God enough, then you wouldn't fear death and you wouldn't be afraid of the soldiers.
Yeah. That's the problem. The fear is a problem. You understand? The fact that you fear means you don't really truly believe in God.
It truly it doesn't it it tells uh God you don't really really want to be saved. Okay. It's that fear. Do you understand? Yeah.
Okay. So, that's why she's stuck where she is because she's afraid. It's not like she's happy, but she's afraid of the unknown. She's afraid of that leap of faith that you have to put into God. That's her limitation.
Yeah.
Can I ask a follow-up question? So, is it still possible for her to change in heaven? like maybe develop like a will to advance or
Of course it is. Well, it's a problem.
Oh, so um at first I thought like what she did as a human like defined like where she will go in like heaven and
uh No, it doesn't.
Oh, okay.
Yeah. But but what's the problem with her?
Um like she doesn't want to advance.
Exactly. Do you understand? Okay.
Okay. Okay. And and why and why why doesn't she want to
um
what's the reason why she's
Maybe she's like content or like
No, it's not because she's content. It's because But why does she have a will she's afraid? You understand? It's a fear. You understand?
Oh, okay. Okay.
Right. It's a fear.
169:46That she's she's scared that like she cannot advance or
Yeah. She's afraid of disappointment. She's afraid of failure.
Oh, okay. Okay.
Right. So, she's stuck saying, "Okay, well, God just wants me here,
so I'm just going to stay here."
Yeah. It's a It's a pretext. It's a rationale.
So, it's like comforting yourself when you got like a bad grade or something, right?
It's Yeah. It's a very human reaction. We do this all the time, right?
Yeah.
We We say we're happy, you know, being the worst student at Yale,
but you're not. Okay.
Okay. Yeah, I get it. Thank you.
All right. Any more questions or comments?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah. So, uh I just want to know the difference between worship and believe. For example, I believe in God, but it doesn't mean that I worship God because I think worship is a higher much higher belief than
does God care if you worship him or not? Does God care if you worship him or not? Does God care if you're a Christian or not?
And also like doesn't matter. Do you understand? What matters are your actions, right? What matters because it's your actions that define who you are, right? If you are Carta and you're like, if you like, okay, let's let's use your imagination.
There's a army surrounding the convent. Okay? The army says, "You come out now or come in and we'll kill everyone in the convent." Okay? And Picarda is fearless and she has total faith in God. What could she have done to get herself out of the situation?
Guys, use your use your imagination. What could she have done? Imagine yourself as Picarda. You're in a comment. Yeah.
Maybe like I wouldn't actually do it, but I will probably pretend to suicide or whatever. Like if you guys dare to come in, I'll just kill myself.
Yeah. Do you understand this? You just stand on top of the roof and says, "Okay, guys, you come in the door. I'll
171:47jump jump down. Right. If you're the army, what's your job again? What's your job as the army?
To get her safely to the
Exactly. Right. And so what would the army do?
Try to go up to the castle and like bring her down.
No, they won't. They'll be afraid, right? Cuz where are they now? No, no, no. I'm saying where are they?
What what what building or is in front of them?
God.
God is in front of them. You understand? Who do you think has taken possession of Paka right now? If you see a woman, okay, who's like a princess and she's standing on top of a roof and says, "Hey guys, you come in, I'll jump I'll jump down." Who do you think you're fighting now?
God.
You're fighting God now. Okay. And so they're going to run away, right? They go back to the Duke and says, "Hey, man. Uh, your sister's crazy." What's the Duke going to do?
Marry another woman.
Well, he'll probably come himself. Okay. And now he's outside the nunnery and she's doing the same thing again, right? You come in and jump down the the roof. What's she What's he going to do?
try to persuade her but fail maybe.
And then what's he what's what's he going to do
then? Go away.
He has to go home now. You understand? Cuz like you can't deal with this crap, right? But but you see what's happened. Just the will like Yeah.
Like uh this this is actually questioning direct something you said earlier. So you said earlier that your actions define where where where you are on this celestial ladder. However, uh
173:47spoilers but but like in pugator are the good pagans. So the good pagans who did not believe in God but did good deeds. So if your deeds define who you who you are then why are the good pagans stuck there? Um, okay. We have not read complete the divine comedy.
What you'll find is that even though the Catholic Church says that your Christian identity determines if you go to heaven or hell, D doesn't believe this. Okay. Right. Does that make sense? Yeah.
As you keep on reading, you'll find that there are pagans who are in heaven. Okay.
So, they're just not good though.
Yeah. All right. Yeah. um about the like the imaginative situation that um when she that she says that she's going to like part of the the castle, what if the soldiers just think that she's lying and then like and or if she says that but she doesn't really believe it, would they still like come and get her or would they be convinced by her?
Well, imagine if you were a soldier, what what would you be thinking? She's bluffing.
You mean she's bluffing?
Yeah, she could be bluffing.
And And And are you going to take the chance?
No.
You're not going to take a chance. Do you understand? Okay. Because I mean like, okay, I mean, you have to like imagine yourself in that situation, okay? You're the soldier.
Ricardo is doing this crap on you, right? You have to think God has taken possession of her and and they are in a nunny. Do you understand? Okay. So the human reaction would be like I need to get out of here man.
This is not a good situ situation for me. Right? Because if I go back and I tell the Duke uh your sister's crazy and she
175:49won't come home. What what will the Duke do?
Off with your head. Um, well,
I think it's the problem with their livelihoods because maybe they're paid by the Duke and then like if they aren't paid that they wouldn't be able to feed like their families back home, I think.
Okay. Well, imagine two situation. The first situation is you go back to the to says your sister's crazy and uh we have to like come back. Second situation is like we thought your sister was bluffing so we storm the nunnery and she jumped off the roof. Now she's dead.
Hey, the first one's better.
The first one is probably better for you. Okay. It's a lot better for you, right? Okay. So, again, I'm not saying uh this is what's going to happen.
I'm I'm saying like if you have the will, there's always going to be a way. And that's something that Dante is trying to portray here. Okay. All right. Okay.
Uh let's keep on reading.
This said, she then began to sing a Maria and while singing vanished as a weighty thing will vanish in deep water. My sight, which followed her as long as it was able to once she was out of view, returned to where its greater longing lay, and it was wholly bent on Beatric. But she then struck my eyes with so much brightness that I at first could not withstand her for. And that made me delay my question.
So, um, Donnie has met Ricardo and now he wants to ask Petress a question. What is his question? We just spent the last hour talking about it. What question does Dante really really want to ask Beatress now?
177:49What did she do wrong? Right. Like I don't understand this at all. She did nothing wrong. Okay.
All right. Uh let's continue to to count four. Before a man bit into one of two foods equally removed and tempting, he would die of hunger if his choice were free. So would a lamb stand motionless between the cravings of two savage wolves. In fear of both, so would a dog between two deer.
Thus I need neither blame nor praise myself when both my doubts compelled me equally. What kept me silent was necessity.
So Donnie is very confused. So confused that he's in fear. Okay, he has anxiety over this. Again, the question is what did Carter do wrong here? He's really confused by this.
Keep on going. I did not speak, but in my face were seen longing and questioning, more ardent than if spoken words had made me made them evident. Then Beatatrice did just as Daniel did when he appeased Nebuchadnezzar's Netzer's anger, the rage that made the king unjustly fierce. She said, "I see how both desires draw you so that your anxiousness to know is self-tangled and cannot express itself. Your reason, if my will to good persists, why should the violence of others cause the measure of my merit to be less?"
Okay, so they understand this. Okay, Barta, what did she do wrong? She was forced to leave the convent. She had no choice in the matter. So why is she stuck in the lowest sphere?
Okay, keep on going.
And you're also led to doubt because the
179:51doctrine Plato taught with fine support by souls appearing to return to the star. These are the questions that within your will press equally for answers. Therefore, I shall treat the most insidious question first. Neither the Sarif closest unto God, nor Moses, Samuel, nor either John, whichever one you will, nor Mary, has, I say, their place in any other heaven than that which houses those souls you just saw. Nor will their blessedness last any longer.
But all those souls raise the imperion, and in each of them has gentle life, though some sense the eternal spirit more, some less. They showed themselves to you here not because this is their sphere but as a sign for you that in the imperion their place is lowest.
Okay. Okay. So this is really important idea to keep in mind. Okay. This is a metaphorical repres representation of the heavens.
In the actual heavens there is no time and space. So there is no hierarchy. Okay. But there are certain souls that um are not as worthy as other souls and so they are now visually depicted in the low in the lower spheres. Okay.
So this is just an optical illusion in order to for us to better understand what's going on. I'm going
such signs are suited to your mind since from the sense only can it apprehend what then becomes fit for the intellect.
Okay. So again, there's no time and space here, right? So only by adding in time and space can we truly understand what's going on. I'm going
and this is why the Bible condescends to human powers assigning feet and hands to God, but meaning something else instead. and Gabriel and Michael and the angel who heals the eyes of Tobit are portrayed by holy church with human
181:53visages. That which said in reasoning of souls does not describe what you have seen since it would seem that as he speaks you think. He says the soul returns to that same star from which so he believes it had been taken when nature sent that soul as form to body.
Okay. Right. So um so the idea here is that we all come from the soul world. Okay. And in the soul world uh we come with a purpose and after we die we go back to the same place that we come from.
But then this raises the question then is what is the point of life then? Right? If you're going to end up in the same place you started out with who cares what you do here? Right. Uh yes.
Did did do did do did do did do did do did do did do did do did do did do did you have a comment or question?
Yeah. Well through like life on earth on earth you can learn and have experiences and then they can shape you and maybe like make you more enlightened and um help.
Yeah. But you still end up at the same place.
But that well well you could change right like you can change your your opinion or yourself. You will basically
on this on this world, but back in the old world, the real world, the world of the heavens, you're still stuck where you are. But this is what Timus is saying. Okay. Not not what Donnie is saying. Don Donn would obviously say that no, you can't actually ascend.
Yeah.
Uh so I would say that's a very materialist view of life. So we're going to die anyways. So why not have fun? Like if you're stuck,
if you're stuck there, then all you have is every day you can sing, I guess. But here you can drink, you can drink beer, you can have a wife, you could you could do a lot of things and that's the fun that matters.
Why not, you know, like because you can't, as you say, you can't get drunk and throw up there. So do it here, man. Right. What? What?
And like, you know, have lots and lots of sex, man. And go
183:53kill someone just for fun, right? What's stopping you? Okay. All right. I'm not saying go do these things.
I'm just saying like, you know, but anyway, keep going.
But his opinion is perhaps to be taken in other guys than his words speak, intending something not to be derided. If to these fears he wanted to attribute honor and blame for what they influence, perhaps his arrow reaches something true. This principle ill understood misled almost all of the world once so that and Mercury and Mars gave names to stars. The other doubt that agitates you is less poisonous for it insidiousness is not such as to lead you far from me. To mortal eyes our injustice seems unjust that this is so should serve as evidence for faith, not heresies depravity.
but that your intellect may penetrate more carefully into your other query. I shall, as you desire, explain it clearly. If violence means that the one who suffers has not embedded forces in any way, then there's no excuse these souls can claim. For will, if it resists, is never spent, but acts as nature acts when fire ascends, though force a thousand times tries to compel. Okay.
So here it she's explaining exactly what we discussed. Okay. As long as you have the will, it becomes like a fire ascending and there's no force in on our planet that can stop our will. You understand? Same idea here where if you really want it, you're going to imagine uh a solution that's the fire ascending and then the universe will will bend itself to accommodate you.
Okay. Keep on going.
So that when will has yielded much or little, it has abetted force as these
185:55golds did, they could have fled back to their holy shelter.
Okay. So yeah, that's it. Okay. The reason why these soldiers were able to arrest you and take you back is you let them do it. You agreed to it.
Don't say you were forced to do it. Okay? You could have run away. You you've done a lot of things. Okay, keep on going.
Had there well been as whole as that which held Lawrence Fast to the Great, and that which made of Mus one who judged his own hand, then once freed, they would have willed to find the faith from which they had been dragged. But it is all too seldom that a will is so intact.
Okay. All right. So, Mousius is a great story. Have you guys ever heard the story of Mousius? All right.
So what happened was um that the Romans were a small republic and they were surrounded by this huge empire. They were under siege and they were starving. So one young nobleman Mousius and he's like 20 years old. He he suggests that he go and assassinate the king. Okay.
So he gets permission from the father from the uh Roman elders, the senators. He swims across the Tyber, sneaks into the enemy camp, and he's trying to assassinate the king. The problem is that it's payday. And so there are two people on stage, the king and the secretary. They both look alike.
They dress alike. Okay. And so Moose is like, I don't know who's the king, right? I have one dagger. I'm gonna leave and I'm gonna kill someone, but I might miss and you know it's 50/50.
Okay. What would you do in that in in that situation? What would you do? H no way you can't, right? Do you understand?
If you kill one, the soldiers have to come and arrest you,
187:57right? So, what do you do? What would you do? Seriously?
Uh maybe I would like to kill one of them. I don't care who is real. I just queue because I queue at him. It means my will is there. So
yeah, so most people would just go home or or like just wait. Okay, but Mucius is like screw this. I'm gonna take a chance. Okay, so he kills one and of course it's a secretary.
So now he's arrested and the king says to him, "You see that fire over there? This fire is burning. Okay, it's a bonfire. And if you don't tell me exactly who you work for and how many compatriots you have and what your plan is, I'm going to burn you in that bonfire. Okay.
You either confess and tell me everything. I'm going to burn you alive. So what does Mousius do?
Yeah.
I think he like stuck his hand in the fire and said that he's not afraid.
Yeah, that's what he does. Okay. He just put his hand in the fire and it's burning. Okay. And while this is happening, he's laughing.
The king is like, "You Romans are such crazy bastards that I'm going to go run away now." Okay. And so this probably not a true story. Um, but it shows you the power of the will. Whereas as long as you believe, as long as you are willing to act, the universe will bend itself to um your will. Okay, this is very different from the idea of strategy, right?
Or you know, let's be really really clever. Okay, this is something very different. It's a different power. All right. Okay.
Keep on going. And through these words, if you have grasped their bent, you can eliminate the argument that would have troubled you again and often. But now another
189:57obstacle obstructs your sight. You cannot overcome it by yourself. It is too worrying to try. I've set it in your mind as something certain that souls in blessedness can never lie since they are always near the primal truth. But from Picarda, you were also able to hear how Constants kept her love of the veil.
And here Picarda seems to contradict me. Before this, brother, it has often happened that to flee to flee menace, men unwillingly did what should not be done. So did Elkman. To meet the wishes of his father, kill his mother not to fail in filio piety. He acted ruthlessly.
Okay. All right. So often in life when we make decisions we often contradict principles. Okay. So for example this man uh als um his father ordered him to kill his mother.
Obviously murder is wrong but you also have to respect your father right this disobeying your father is wrong. Murdering your your mother is wrong. What do you do? Okay often in life we have these more dilemas and keep on going. At that point I would have you see the forces to which one yielded mingles with one's will and no excuse can pardon their joint act.
Absolute will does not concur in wrong but the contingent will through fear that its resistance might bring greater harm consent. Therefore picarda means the absolute will will when he she speaks and I the relative so that the two of us have spoken truth.
Okay. All right. So this is a really important idea we need to unpack. Okay, there's a difference between absolute will and relative will, contingent will. What's the difference?
Yes.
So absolute will is I will love God no
191:58matter what. And teaching will is I will love God. And then someone tells you if you love God, I'll kill you. And so you say okay, okay, I don't I don't Um okay any other theories? I'd say they come from different places.
Absolute will comes from imagination. It comes from your own story. Whereas relative will comes from reasoning, logic, you know comparing outcomes.
Okay. Any other explanations? Absolute will contingent will. What is the difference? the same as absolute morality and relative morality.
What's the difference between these two things?
So I don't know like absolutely that no matter what it's going to happen but contingent it's kind of like because I don't want more harm to be done kind of like what the book silence is about where the priest the Catholic priests in order to protect the Japanese believers said that they are going to not be priests and take wives. Okay. Um we'll go to you then you. Okay. Yeah.
Um I would say contingent will is um constrained by reality and absolute will is like it's always there like absolute will is God basically the will of God.
And so how can we describe these things more simplistically? Absolute will is what? Condition will is what?
Can I answer? Yeah. M
can I answer?
Yeah.
Um so contingent will well it will be the individual human and the absolute will be by God this place in us.
And what is our connection to the God? How do we connect to God?
Through through love.
Okay. Yes. Yeah.
193:59Um so like I would say that absolute will is active. It is the will that finds the way. It creates its own condition for it is unstoppable. Contingent will operates within the confines of the material. It reacts to what is put before it in order to follow itself.
But
right. So both both you and you are right. Okay. But I'm saying add the two together. What do you get?
Like like very simplistically, what is the difference? Yeah. Did you have a comment or question? Um yeah, but it's sort of not not related. I think um absolute will would be faith and then um contingent will would be belief and one needs justification, the other doesn't.
Okay. Yeah. Uh absolute will is when you're aligned with God and contingent when you're not.
Okay. But but but how can we say this very simplistically?
I'm going to give it a go try. So maybe absolute will is like perfect and then like um contingent will is imperfect. So it will if you don't like exercise it well it will be like faulty and lead to like bad things.
Okay. All right. So abs like like let's put this very simple okay. After wills a soul right? The soul is always in connection with the god.
Contingent will is the body. The bo the body needs to respond to the material universe, the material world. So the m the contingent will can be afraid. So what betric is saying is that when Ricardo was acting, her absolute will was still true to God, but her contingent will um defy God. Okay, does that make sense?
Okay. But why would this be a problem?
Yeah.
I have a question. Do these two will can they coexist at the same time? Absolute will and contingent will.
196:00Okay. So, um Dante is putting this very simplistically. Okay. What he's saying is that there are two wills. The absolute will, your soul.
The contingent will your body responds to uh worldly problems. But um you can think of the will existing in infinite dimensions. Does that make sense? Infinite dimensions. So there's infinite wills.
And um yeah. And what what are you trying to do as a person? You're trying to create harmony across these infinite dimensions of wills. Okay? You're trying to align the absolute will with a contingent will.
And why would you want to do that?
Yeah.
Oh yeah. Maybe it's just like uh I remember Bruce Le said try to be combined to harmony. So maybe in China maybe most people just just like to keep balance. They don't like to choose the two extreme whether you're a spiritual thing or whether you're material they just
yeah I understand that. Yes. Keep on going. Uh yes. Well, if you align all contingent wills and create absolute will, you create godhood or you become God, right?
No, no, you're not trying to become God. You're trying to be you're trying to be closer to God. Do you understand? There's a difference.
But like if you can like all the wills of the people, if you can like um make them objective, then that would be being like God. So through doing that through power like
no that's not what Dante would say. Some some other people would say that but not but not Dante. Okay. All right. So um the idea here is there are different expressions manifestations of your will.
Okay. There's the absolute will which is always in connection with God. And then there's a contingent will which is your choices on this world. And what we're trying to do is we're trying to harmonize these two wills in order to
198:02become closer to God. In order to make the right decisions. Okay. So her car in her instance her absolute will was loyal to God but her contingent will uh surrender to fear. Okay.
And that's what her problem was. Does that make sense guys? Any questions before we move on? Huh?
Um, so how can we combine these two wheels together like better?
Uh, any response to this? How do you combine these two together?
Well, maybe uh because why people just feel scared about death because they don't know where they're going to go, right? But if we know where we're going to go, there must be some kind of universe in that place. Maybe they don't need to scare about it. The fears is come from unknown. But if we know something then we don't think the fear problem.
So historically there have been two solutions. Okay. The first solution is knowledge nosis to like just continue to read Dante explore and just discover the secrets of the universe. And once you have the knowledge you lose fear, right? Because why do you why are you afraid of death?
because you're afraid because you're afraid that if you die, you'll just be nothing. But if you actually know the secrets of the universe, you recognize that death is just a release or it's just a beginning of something else. So you lose that fear. Okay. So knowledge is one possibility, but another possibility is the idea of love.
Okay. To just love someone so intensely that you give yourself to that person and you lose your fear. And when you love someone unconditionally, what happens is the absolute will and the and the conditioning will combine together because all your actions are dictated by your uh love for that person. This what
200:02Dante will will tell us later on. Okay. Does that make sense? Knowledge or love. Okay.
All right. Uh can you continue to read, please?
Such was the rippling of the holy stream issuing from the fountain from which springs all truth. It set to rest both of my longings. Then I said, "Oh beloved of the first lover, oh you divine, whose speech so floods and warms me that I feel more and more life. How deep my gratefulness, it cannot match your grace with grace enough. But he who sees and can, may he grant recompense.
I now see well. We cannot satisfy our mind unless it is enlightened by the truth beyond whose boundary no truth lies. Mind reaching that truth rests within it as a beast within its layer. Mind can attain that truth. If not all our all our desires were vain.
Therefore our our doubting blossoms like a chute out from the root of truth. This natural urge spurs us toward the peak from height to height. Lady, my knowing why we doubt invites sustains my reverence asking you about another truth that is obscure to me. I want to know if in your eyes one can amend for unkempt vows with other acts. Good works your balance will not find too scant.
Then Beatus looked at me with eyes so full of sparks of love, eyes so divine that my own force of sight was overcome, took flight and eyes downcast, I almost lost my senses.
Okay, so um this is very much a student teacher relationship, right? Where Beatus is the teacher and Dante is a student. And as the teacher, what Beatrice really wants is for the student
202:02to ask questions to doubt, to challenge because only through this process can a student achieve full understanding. Okay. So um why is Beatric excited about the question that Dante asked? Okay. So we've had this long discussion about Picarda, right?
We now know what she did wrong and we now know why she is in a lower sphere. But then Donnie asked this question and he asked this question and the question is so she screwed up. Okay, she um was taken by the soldiers from the nunnery. So she that showed a lack of will. But is it impossible for her to redeem herself by committing acts of charity so wonderful that it redeems her from her lack of will.
Does that make sense, guys? Like, so she she come she's a nun. Uh she's taking away and now she becomes a queen and she's like, "You know what? I want to be the best queen in the world. I'm going to give all my wealth to all the poor people in the world.
That makes sense, right? What do you guys think? Would that work? Except that wouldn't solve the core problem of her still being fearful of failure, right? Fearful of consenting.
Okay. Okay. Can can you explain some more please?
The reason why Picardia was was was not able to transcend to go get to the next level was because she was fearful at the core in life in her journey. He she's still going to get back to that same situation where she'll have to choose right between a rock and a hard place, right? So then if she doesn't have the will to to
204:03transcend that, then um you know you're still not the next like you're still not in the next sphere. Okay. Okay. So that's logically correct. Yes.
Okay. But but but let's go deeper. Yes.
So I was thinking that she cannot be redeemed by this because um essentially she is doing all these like acts of charity uh for like the result of her redeeming herself. So she's not being genuine about these like acts of kindness. And I don't think that that's able to redeem her.
Yeah. But who cares? She's still helping a poor. Yeah, but then that act would not be like totally good because it would be for like a selfish purpose.
Like if that makes sense. I
I understand that makes sense, but I'm trying to logically understand what's going on. So, I mean, she breaks her vow, then she goes and like helps a billion people live happier lives, right? She's a great queen. Wouldn't that redeem her in the eyes of God?
Yes, but like
No, it actually would not. The
answer is it would not redeem her in the eyes of God. But I'm I'm trying to figure out what the problem is.
So, I guess like my answer to that would be like she is pushing herself to do a lot of these things because she still is worried that like God is not going to like forgive her and then that she's going to end in like a bad circle in heaven. So, she is still worried. So like she's still not like acting upon that will.
Okay. I I don't understand because she just helped a billion people live happier lives and it's coming from a place of anxiety and fear. She's afraid that God will punish her. But the results are good. So who cares?
Quality over quantity in this case. Can you can you explain what this means? the the the fundamental nature of her
206:04soul, of her being, of her existence in her own eyes. There's always going to be that as she progresses until she overcomes this fear of failure. She can help a billion, a trillion, you're still going to get back to that same spot. You're going to have to choose and you're going to have to choose to overcome your fears.
Okay. Yes. The way you're posing the question sounds very consequentialist with ethics like we we're caring about the outcome but this would have been in in a time of like arisatilian virtue ethics and so we would be car far more about the four virtues than than the outcome. Okay. But but I I I understand this.
I understand this is a different time, but I'm saying like um in the grand scheme of things, if this person Ricardo is helping a billion people live happier lives, who cares what her motivation is? Who cares why she's doing any of this? Right? I'm saying I'm saying this not in any cont. I'm just saying like generally speaking, the general principle.
Yeah. Um, it's the it's the Constantine argument all over again. So, you watch the movie Constantine. So, Constantine uh did some bad things and then he tried to save himself by doing a lot of good things. In his case, it was exercising demons.
And he got really mad when God and his angels kept telling him that, oh, you're going to go to hell anyways. And he asked the angel, why can't I go to heaven? And angel was like, oh, it's because none of the things you did was selfless. You see, Ricarda helped all of these people live better lives. But these people literally have nothing to do with her own soul.
Like when God, God is not judgmental. When God looks at you, let's say when he looks at you, he he does not see your deeds, he sees your salvation through your spirit. And in this case, she has not attained salvation through her spirit. She has tried to use good deeds to make make up
208:05for this, but she has not attained this. Yeah, that that is correct. Yes, that is closer to what I want. Yes. Anyone else?
Yes.
Yeah. But I think this make me have question because I just want to know the difference between a demon and a god because the demon also said that I mean to be god. So
demons
the demons
there are no demons. There's only God.
Oh the only god. Right. So, so therefore I think the god is I'll try to give you something for not really return but the crane maybe just try to make a deal with you or maybe just you know sign a track contract or what? Okay. Okay guys.
All right. Okay. All right. Um so we could be here like all day. Okay.
But but let me explain what the idea here is to understand what's going on. I need to explain to you Emo Kant's categorical imperative. Okay. The categorical imperative by Emanuel Kant and there are three principles to the categorical imperative which is the highest moral law in the universe. Okay.
The rule of life that allows you to be closer to God. The categorical imperative. Okay. The first idea is um you are a reflection of the universe. So just imagine that whatever you do the entire universe will do.
If you laugh the universe laughs with you. If you are angry the universe is angry with you. Okay. So imagine that you are just a fractal or reflection of the entire universe and whatever you do the entire universe will do as well. Okay.
Now we understand why whatever Pakora does doesn't redeem her because her act of fear, her act of uh incontinence of going with the soldiers
210:08and not keeping her vows, it changes the nature of the universe. And that doesn't really matter if she made a billion people richer. Doesn't it doesn't matter. Okay? The universe is poorer because of her fear of her lack of faith.
That's number one. Number two is free will. Everything you do, you do because it is your choice. So back to the original point which is like you know you're like I have to go help if I go help a billion people then I should be able to go to heaven, right? Or Constantine says well I killed a lot of demons so therefore I should go to heaven.
That's not the way it works. Okay? Everything you do has to become because of free will. And the last is humans are the ultimate end. Okay?
You cannot say okay to save a billion people I need to kill that one person. That goes against the category imperative. I know it sounds stupid. Wait a minute. I I kill one person.
I save a billion people. You can't do that. Okay? That's not how the universe works. Every soul is precious to God.
Every soul is unique to God. Therefore, you cannot kill another soul in order to advance a greater good. Okay? God would never ever ask you to kill someone else in order to achieve a higher good. So this is the cate categorical imperative.
And the categorical imperative is really a way for us to understand the morality of Dante's cosmology of his universe. Okay, does that make sense? That's why there's no way for Picarda to redeem herself in the eyes of God. All right, so this rais an interesting question. What can Para Pardo do to redeem herself then according to the categorical imperative according to Dante?
How
212:09Well, if she becomes queen and she saves a billion people, that doesn't work. So, what can she do?
She can run away and go back to the non-inary.
Yes, that is a possibility. Yes.
Uh maybe just sharing as much love as she can to her like children's. That's no different from making bill people happier,
right? Yeah. But it would be more like personal and like connected to the soul, I guess. Like uh cuz also uh giving money to people isn't really about love uh in a way.
Yeah. Yeah. But but but why is she being but why is she loving her children so much? Why why is she so nice to her children then? It goes back to the Constantine problem, right?
It's the same thing where Constine was doing a lot of good by killing these demons and God says, "We don't care." Same thing where, you know, if Ricarda has 10 kids and they all love her and she loves him back, God's not going to care either. The same situation, right? So, I'm saying like, what can she do to redeem herself in the eyes of God? Uh, yes. Then you Well, if there's no way, then there's no free will.
Right. So there has to be a way. Yes. Uh repent. How I was asking this question.
How can you repent?
Yes. If there's free will, then her like her will should be able to change. So like instead of wanting to be closer to God, thus being in anunnery, she could change her free will. Should change her will.
How? I don't understand. like her will is now I will be a good king and a good mother, a queen and a good mother.
We just said that. We just said that doesn't work.
But that was because she was coming from a place of fear. If she comes from a place of will,
214:09right? And so, okay. So, now what's happening is that her contingent will is now harmonizing with her absolute will, which forces her to do what? Yes.
So, this is a this is like prosperity gospel. Okay. This is really stupid. This is really entitled. But what if Ricarda just stops begging begging God to like, "Oh God, please notice me." What if Ricardo goes, "Okay, I am worthy of this now.
Is she begging God for anything?"
Yeah. Well, the solutions that we just proposed, like doing all these good deeds, that's a roundabout way of begging to be honest. What is she doing? Was she doing any of these things? Is she doing any of these things?
Yeah, she isn't.
No, she isn't. What What What is she feeling right now? Like, what's she feeling right now? She's in heaven. How does she feel?
Content.
She's pretty content. Okay. So, so this all hypothetical. I'm saying if she really wanted to redeem herself in the eyes of God, what would she do?
Maybe she can increase her will. But I I do want to ascend into like a closer space to God.
Exactly. Okay. That that that's it. Okay. Do you understand?
If all she's like the way she redeems herself is saying, I'm not happy being the dumbest kid at Yale. I want to be like second dumbest kid at Yale or something. Okay. Anything. Who cares?
But that would make her redeem redeem herself in the eyes of God because now she's exercising more will. When you do that, you're showing your faith, love, and trust in God. That's what God wants. None of this crap like, "Okay, I'll do I'll donate a billion dollars to charity, okay? Or I'll be really nice to my kids." He God doesn't want that crap.
God wants you to love yourself. Okay? So, in other words, who really put
216:11her in the lowest sphere? It's herself. Do you understand? It's all free will. It's all free choice.
Wherever you are in the universe, it's because you choose to be there. Does that make sense? No one put you there. Okay. When says, "God put me here and I'm thankful to God," she is insulting God.
Okay? Because God would never do that to you. God would never make you the dumbest kid at Yale. All right. If you choose to do that.
Am I talking too much about Yale?
That's fine.
Yeah.
It makes it more alive,
right? Sorry about that.
All right. Okay. Um All right. So, let's go on. Okay.
All right. If in the fire of love I seem to flame beyond the measure visible on earth, so that I overcome your visions forth, you need not wonder, I'm so because of my for perfected vision. As I grasp the good, so I approach the good in act. Indeed, I see that in your intellect now shines the neverending light. Once seen, that light alone and always kindles love.
And if a lesser thing allure your love, it is a vestige of that light which though imperfectly gleams through that lesser thing. You wish to know if through a righteous act one can repair a promise unfulfilled so that the soul and God are reconciled. So Beatus began this kanto and as one who does not interrupt her speech so did her holy reasoning proceed. The greatest gift the magnam Magnanimity of God as he created gave
218:14the gift most suited to his goodness gifts that he most prizes was the freedom of the will.
Okay guys, do you guys see this? Okay, she's saying because God loves us, he gives us free will. That is his greatest gift to us. Okay, that's how we know he loves us. ongoing.
Those beings that have intellect, all these and none but these, received and do receive this gift. Thus you may draw as consequence the high worth of a vow when what is pledged with your consent and counters God's consent. For when a path is drawn between a man and God, then through free will, a man gives up what I have called his treasure, his free will. What then can be a fitting compensation to use again what you had offered would mean seeking to do good with ill god gain. But now you understand the major point.
But since the holy church gives dispensations which seems in contrast with the truth I stated. You need to sit at table somewhat longer. The food that you have taken was tough food. It still needs help if you're to digest it. Open your mind to what I shall disclose and hold it fast within you.
He who hears but does not hold what he has heard learns nothing.
Okay. Stop. Okay. All right. So, let's try to figure this out.
Okay. So, don't ask this question. Ricarda um did wrong. Um but is there a way to to compensate for what she did? What is Beatric's answer?
What is the logic here? Just summarize for me what she's saying. The logic is this, right? God loves us
220:15and God's greatest gift to us is to give us free will. So we can do whatever we want. Okay. And what what does Picarda do with this free will? Free choice.
Doesn't do anything.
Uh excuse me. Away her own free will.
She she promised her free will to God so that the two are now bounded together. Okay. So what's happened is that God gave Picarda free will and then Picarda gave her free will to God so that so that now they are eternally married. Right? They're eternally married.
You can't divorce. You cannot betray the person. Okay? So what Carter did was not was not just not keep a vow. She betrayed God, right?
That is what Peter is saying. This is pretty extreme. Do you guys are you guys okay with with this argument?
So her mistake was promising her free will to God. Um, so yes. And what and and so like do you think do you think it's a bit harsh? You think?
Uh, no.
Yeah.
I think this is a pretty slippery slope to slide on. I I think it's is it's a it's a slope. It's it's it's a it's a logical issue. So, you're taking something that's pretty small and you're blowing it up out of context. Like everything can stand for something like
222:15his uh Ricardo's vows to God can stand for God himself. And if they can stand for God himself, then he betray then she betray God and becomes bigger and bigger and that's a problem.
Okay, let let's use an analogy. Okay, let's just say that um a man or wife got married. Okay, it's a marriage. The wife betrays the husband with some affair. How could the wife redeem herself in the eyes of the husband?
Yeah. Well, actually this is very sensitive cuz uh uh I think the a loving fair is kind of third wheel, right? So if there's third will then I think the wife should make apologize. So the god will forgive the people who make apologize.
Okay. Okay. Okay. So your wife cheats on you and she apologizes and you're like fine I forgive you. Are you willing to forgive her?
Uh physically? Yes. Mentally? No.
What can she do to redeem herself in your eyes? If you're the husband and she cheats on you, there's no way. I don't think there is. I don't know. Okay.
Right. I mean, no. Okay. Let's switch this. Okay.
You're you're the wife and the husband cheats on you. What could he do to redeem redeem himself in your eyes? What?
Out of battery.
Yeah. Okay.
Uh yeah, there's no one over here. Yeah.
224:18So, I I wasn't going to say that he can't redeem himself. I was going to say that uh he can only be redeemed when I decide that he is redeemed. Like he has no choice in the matter. I decide whether or not he's redeemed.
U I guess I think a better way of framing it is uh whoever that cheats, right? the wife or the husband in this case. If the husband cheats, right? How would the husband be able to redeem himself in the eye of himself aso in his own journey, right? As opposed to relative to because this is judgment, right?
If the wife needs to judge whether the husband is redeemed, that's so in the eyes of the husband himself who cheated. How do you get back to that place before you cheated? Right? So I think uh I guess the only solution is similar like you break the cycle. If you find yourself in a cheating situation again, if you decide not to cheat, I think that's
Oh, no. You already cheated or you pretend that you didn't cheat.
Well, I'm going to work, man.
Well, in your next marriage.
Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. So, maybe I want to reiterate what she was thinking because um humans aren't God. And so,
what what humans aren't God?
Yeah, that's right. They're not God.
And so, but but this is a this is a judgment. the that the wife is dealing with the cheater and she's trying to regain trust, but God doesn't have this issue of of trust or judgement.
I understand. I understand. So, I'm saying like, can you give me the concrete thing you can do to redeem yourself?
Well, you'd change your character and then you would gain trust by that change character. So, someone who cheats at 18, maybe they don't cheat at 40. So, it just takes time and regain trust. But but but but how can you regain trust?
By not cheating in the future. I mean by being a different person.
You can't go back in time and not and
226:18unche, right? So all you're going to do is is find yourself like he's saying and like she's saying, you're just not going to do it. You're going to be a different
What's the problem with cheating? Can can we first explain why? Look, okay, so you have this random one night affair. Who cares? Why?
It wasn't matter.
Yeah. Actually, I think the you know just like Clinton used to say I just have a se I don't have sex relationship with with the that girl but he said I I have to have sex. So a relationship maybe is is kind of thing is more than three times for sex that is relationship that is evil because that is for once I think it's a mistake. It's okay to do a mistake. It can't be understand.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Uh I think the the only way would be if the party who sort of committed the sin did the cheating, the other partner can see that they feel genuinely uh bad for what they did cuz you can cheat and not really care or just surf.
I I understand I understand all this but I'm saying like okay first let's establish what cheating does. Why is cheating a bad thing? Like who cares? Yes.
Because you have broken a vow of covenant and that you have to redeem or paid in blood.
What vow?
So if they are married then it's the vow that they made before God. They're going to be man and wife till death do them part.
And and how do they make this vow?
In front of God.
And and what do they how did they make this vow?
Um at a ceremony.
At a ceremony. And what did they do? They spoke it out loud.
They spoke it.
They spoke it out loud.
Yeah. Okay. Do you understand?
Mhm.
All right. So, there's now this bond.
Yeah.
Right.
Yes.
So, when you cheat, what you're doing is you're have
broken it.
You're breaking this bond. That's a problem.
Yeah. It's a huge thing, especially in the covenant, right? Because covenant
228:18basically means if you break it, you have to die or pay the price. I shall be like the animal that got cut in half. That's the initial covenant that was in the Bible.
That's right. So what you've done is you've changed the nature of the relationship from one based on trust
to one now that is one of suspicion.
Yeah.
Right. Okay. That's a problem. The sex is not the issue. The affair is not the issue.
The trust is the issue.
Yes.
So I this is why being with God is better than being with your boyfriend or girlfriend because your boyfriend or girlfriend cannot read your mind. Like you can you can try to convince them. can kneel on a keyboard and you can tell them, "I've changed. I promise." But they can choose to not believe you. But the good thing with God is that he can see all of you.
If you bear yourself to him, then he can see all of who you are, all of who you have become. And if you have truly moved on, if you have truly become a better person, then he would know it.
Okay, let me ask you this question. Okay, let's imagine your husband and she you cheating your wife once. Okay. What are you most likely to do next? Come on, guys.
You'll do it again. And then what? You'll do it again. And then what? You'll do it again.
Do you understand? So you bring that vow not only changes your relationship with your wife, it changes also who you are, your understanding of yourself. Right? Doesn't make sense. That's why bring a vow is that serious.
It's not like, okay, well, I got drunk and I did something stupid. No, no, no, no, no. It's you've just changed your understanding of yourself. We can also say you've changed how God perceives you. You're like, well, God doesn't really care if I cheat, so I'll do it again.
Do do you understand? Okay. So, what this is what D is saying. These are very serious things. If you make a vow before God and before people, you're
230:19making a contract with yourself. And if you break this contract, you'll probably keep on doing it because it's changed the nature of your soul, right? And there is no redemption for this. There's nothing you can do to repair this. Does that make sense?
Okay. All right. Your answer, your question you kept asking us is what can we do now? And your answer seems to be nothing. But what's the problem?
What's the problem with this? Why is this so serious? Everything else is like, well, you know, if you just want to change, you'll change. But but this is really serious. Why?
you broken your your vow to God essentially.
That's right. And so what what what should you not do then?
So I understand that. So you're just saying once you've broken your vow then then you might as well lay down and die and go to hell. Go to inferno.
No, no, no, no, no. The point here is that you have free will. Sure. You can do whatever you want. Do not make a vow to God unless you're willing to die for it.
Sure. Right. Does that make sense? There are things you must take seriously. If you can just speak out anything you want while no consequence, then this universe has no meaning by itself.
So that was your answer. Die. Okay. So let's think about this. Okay.
You've broken your vow to God, right? And now you are in the lower sphere of heaven. What can you do now?
I don't I don't think we've come to an answer.
Renew the vow.
232:36Okay. Okay. All right. All right. So, so let's be precise about this.
Okay. We we have another 10 minutes. Okay. And and and we'll let let's really really try to unpack this. Okay.
So, you made this vow to God or to your wife. Okay? And again, don't make vows unless you're really serious about it. Okay? Guys, don't make vows unless you can keep them.
All right? God's gonna make you do these vows. If you're gonna make these vows, you better keep them. All right? But then for whatever reason, you have broken the vow.
All right? Now, what I want to do is look into your psychology. Okay? How do you explain the fact that you broke this vow? What did Picarda do?
Helplessness. I couldn't do anything about it.
Exactly. Right. Like, like, yeah, I my wife, but you know, I got drunk and she raped me, so it wasn't really my choice. Okay. So, so you say I'm helpless.
Then what happens? Your psychology.
All right. All right. So, I want to be precise. Okay, this is really important. We're trying to understand my comedy.
You do something that breaks your vows. This causes you to feel helpless because you don't want to take responsibility, right? Then what happens? Uh,
it's kind of like what Eve did, shifting the blame to the serpent and be like, "It's him that tempts me. It's not me that wants to do this." And that's what Adam did to essentially human.
Yeah. It's the same thing. But I'm saying what happens to Eve psychologically, right? When you blame someone else,
you lose agency. You lose agency and then what happens?
Become passive.
You mean
234:38you become passive?
Yeah.
And can you ever change?
Yeah.
Then you won't be able to change. Okay. That's exactly what happened for Carter, right? She made a vow to God. Very, very serious.
Okay. The most serious thing you can do in your life is make a vow to God. Nothing else beats this. Okay, that's number one. Number two is she's not able to keep this vow because she lacks the will.
She's afraid. It's her fault. She shifts the blame and responsibility to her brother and then she just imagine herself as forever lacking agency. This makes her passive and it makes her accept whatever comes her way so that when she ends up in the lowest spirits of the heaven, she's like, I'm happy here even though she's probably not happy there. You understand?
Okay. So, it's not that we can't be redeemed. It's just like we dig a hole and we bury ourselves in it so that it's impossible to redeem ourselves. Okay. Does that make sense guys?
Okay. But this but this does not answer the question, right? What can be done?
Yeah.
I think on the topic of agency, first she has to take back agency. We've already discussed that.
But she can't she cannot take back agency. Why? Because her entire world view is based on her lack of agency. Do you understand?
Yeah.
She has to explain to herself why she didn't resist. The answer is she had no agency
and her and so she's like we but God doesn't give us agency. God demands our obedience.
236:39Do you understand?
Yeah. But
but so with her worldview, it's impossible for her to exercise agency because agency is the finance of God.
Then change her worldview. But you cannot change your world view because it's your world view. It's like telling a computer change your software
programming
knowledge knowledge like uh if we want AI to change their worldview. If we want AI to change their views then we feed them a lot of that kind of knowledge and the AI changes his views
or she can just go take DMT. Excuse me. She can just go take a DMT and
what?
She's already in heaven, manh. That doesn't look good in heaven.
Uh, yes. Did did you uh
claim so wanting to be closer to God? I guess like repent and move on
or the whole lamb of God, wash away the sin and then move on. I don't know
who is the most important person who has ever lived. Jesus, right? Why is he important? Why is he so consequential? Why do you have two billion people believe in Jesus?
Why? What does that mean? He can bring us salvation, right? Okay. So, does it make sense?
Jesus is so consequential because he provides a solution to an impossible problem which is how do you redeem yourself? Right? Because often you're in trouble because you think you deserve your fate and for someone to come along and says that I forgive you unconditionally.
238:39I redeem you unconditionally. That's that's the most powerful idea in the universe. Okay. So, so I know it's not satisfactory, but one possible solution is for someone else to forgive you.
Oh,
because you can't forgive yourself, right? So, what you're basically saying is that she has to wait for someone else to save her.
And who would forgive her?
Jesus.
And who is Jesus?
Yeah. God, right? And will God forgive you?
Yeah.
Yeah. If you turn towards God, God will always forgive you. So, it's a question of faith. Do you understand? Like, as long as you have the right faith, you can always change for the better because you know that God will always forgive you.
Okay? So, that's the solution. All right? The solution is to turn towards God because you will never find the solution in yourself. It's impossible because your worldview, right?
You just come to to the idea that no, I'm helpless. I must obey God and God wants me just to be here for the rest rest of my life for all eternity. Okay. All right. Does it make sense, guys?
Yeah. Any and any more questions? Yes.
Yeah. So I think what he said just reminded me of the memory in which there is Christianity uh the believer who said that don't always try to be like a king. If you want to be king then if you do something wrong then you have it's very hard to to forgive yourself but if if you just you know let go to to to to sit uh on your on your seat royal seat then you can you can be forgiven.
Yeah. Okay. So this is something that's
240:39really hard for us to appreciate, but our actions change our character. You understand? If you commit sin, it's not like, oh, you feel really bad and like you won't do it again. No, it's like once you commit sin, you begin to rationalize the sin and you do more of it. Okay?
And then the sin eventually consumes you and that's how you end up in hell. Hell does not exist outside of us. Hell is a mental construct. It's a way for us to explain away our actions. Okay.
Does that make sense? Yes.
So, hell is not taking responsibility and not forgiving yourself.
Uh, hell is not forgiving yourself. Yes. Exactly. That that's what hell literally is, not forgiving yourself. And we'll see that when we actually go back and visit the inferno.
Okay. All right. But it's important that we first start off with uh paradise so we understand the cosmology. Okay. Uh any more questions, guys?
Okay. So, so that's it for the first day. We have another couple minutes. So, um let me talk about how you can make the most out of your experience today. Okay.
So, the first thing I will say is you guys need to go back and review what we just read today. Okay? Trust me, if you do this, you're going to have a lot more insight into Dante. Okay? So, we've had this this amazing full day discussion.
We've read a lot uh thanks to to Carol. Um but go back and review for yourself, read for yourself the first four contos and make sure you understand everything. Okay? You know something you don't understand? Come tomorrow with questions.
All right. Just make sure you review today. Come tomorrow with questions.
242:42All right. So, we'll spend the first part of of tomorrow morning just answering any questions you have about uh Dante. All right. Make sure you understand everything. If there's a reference you don't understand like who is Gauis, who is Daphne, go make sure you understand the stuff.
Okay? Just read read up on it. Um, and the third thing I will say is always trust your intuition and your imagination. If it feels right to you, it's probably right. If it feels wrong to you, it's probably wrong.
Okay? So, if it feels wrong to you, say it. Be honest. Challenge me, direct me. Okay.
Be like the thing about Beatric and Dante, right? They're in heaven and what do they do? They argue. They debate. They question each other.
Okay.
Excuse me.
Such a great married relationship.
Oh.
Uh. Yes. Okay. Uh. Yes.
Um. No. Yeah. That that's exactly right. Okay.
All right. So, so that's that but like the but like how teachers and D interact with each other. I hope that this can also be like that. Okay. Our classroom can also be one of constant questioning debate um open and honest dialogue.
All right. Okay guys. So that's great. That's it for today. I will see everyone tomorrow.
We start at 10 o'clock. Okay. Okay. Thanks.